On this episode of What the Floor we expose laminate flooring for what it really is… AWESOME! We take a deep dive into what laminate flooring is and isn’t, it’s origin story, how it’s evolved over the years and why you should take the category seriously again.
This episodes’ Walk the Plank is a battle royale – Gluedown vs Loose Lay. Michael and Holiday debate which is better and Producer Jose picks a winner.
Links
Laminate flooring options from T&A Supply
What the Floor is a T&A Supply Company Inc original production. You can find out more about us at tasupply.com or tasflooring.com. This show is produced by Jose Morales with help from Toni Collier and Jessica Riser. Tell us what you think of the show at wtfpodcast@tasupply.com or #whatthefloorpodcast on social media to let us know what you think.
On this episode of What the Floor we expose laminate flooring for what it really is… AWESOME! We take a deep dive into what laminate flooring is and isn’t, it’s origin story, how it’s evolved over the years and why you should take the category seriously again.
This episodes’ Walk the Plank is a battle royale – Gluedown vs Loose Lay. Michael and Holiday debate which is better and Producer Jose picks a winner.
Links
Laminate flooring options from T&A Supply
What the Floor is a T&A Supply Company Inc original production. You can find out more about us at tasupply.com or tasflooring.com. This show is produced by Jose Morales with help from Toni Collier and Jessica Riser. Tell us what you think of the show at wtfpodcast@tasupply.com or #whatthefloorpodcast on social media to let us know what you think.
This is What the Floor from T&A Supply Company Inc, a podcast for the flooring industry. I'm Holiday Van Erem.
Michael Goria:And I'm Michael Goria. We're going to explore the hot topics of the flooring industry with a little humor and a new set of eyes.
Holiday Van Erem:Hello, Michael
Michael Goria:Hello Holliday, how are you today?
Holiday Van Erem:I'm good. It's been a long day, though.
Michael Goria:Yeah, it feels like it's been a long time since we've done this.
Holiday Van Erem:It has. We've had some vacations in between. I feel like I haven't seen you in a very long time.
Michael Goria:It does feel that way.
Holiday Van Erem:We work in the same general vicinity. You'd think we'd see each other more often.
Michael Goria:Not lately.
Holiday Van Erem:So there's been a lot of industry information coming out about stats from 2021. One of the things that came up from Floor Covering News was laminate picks up right where it left off in 2020. And it had some pretty awesome sales numbers about laminate.
Michael Goria:Yeah, we've seen an explosion in laminate really, and we've always been very good at laminate. Laminate has been a huge product for T&A Supply. And we think it's going to continue to be a very successful product line moving forward. So that's what we're here to discuss today.
Holiday Van Erem:Yeah, we thought what a great opportunity. It's been in the trade news lately. And why don't we spend some time talking about laminate? Absolutely. It doesn't get the attention that it probably deserves. It's kind of pushed off to the wayside. So this said that it was the highest sales in several years in 2021, for laminate, so it's making a comeback.
Michael Goria:Yeah, absolutely. That's interesting. I haven't seen that yet. I did see that that came out. But I'm not surprised. I think that there's been more people talking about it. Certainly, as we get into this, the innovation in laminate is something that I think is going to actually continue to push it forward.
Holiday Van Erem:And one of the great things about laminate too is we make a lot of it in the US.
Michael Goria:Yeah.
Holiday Van Erem:Which over the last couple of years with supply chain issues, not being able to get things outside of the US very easily. Might have been one of the reasons why sales started to pick up because you could get laminate.
Michael Goria:Yeah. And it also felt like more and more manufacturers were coming back to us like, Hey, we're reintroducing laminate to you. And they haven't been doing laminate for years. So they're kind of jumping on the laminate excitement in the industry.
Holiday Van Erem:So we're going to talk about laminate, we're going to talk about all sorts of things about laminate, how it's made, where it came from. All the new technology, because it's changed a lot over the years.
Michael Goria:Sure has.
Holiday Van Erem:The new kind of innovations. And we're going to try to pepper in where it seems appropriate products that we sell at T&A that we sell for specific reason. Because one of these new technologies came along with this product, and we you know, kind of the product highlights that particular technology chain, so we'll try to throw those things in there. Make it pretty relevant.
Michael Goria:Yeah. Yeah. So let's just dive in. I was really shocked. I mean, laminate is actually just two years older than I am.
Holiday Van Erem:Oh, yeah. I was also looking at some numbers there. Yeah, that's where I was born.
Michael Goria:Yeah. So I mean, I, at least in the research I did, I found that laminate actually, you know, was invented in 1977. You know, so it's been around. I mean, it just hasn't been around that long. It is a newer product. In regards to
Holiday Van Erem:I was surprised, 1977. To me, I was wood. thinking I was gonna see things from 40s, 50s. I've been around a lot longer than that, in my mind. But, I mean, the timeframe kind of makes sense. So it started in Sweden, started as Pergo originally. And one of the things, one of the stories that I had always been told about laminate since I started working at T&A was a story about how it started in Europe. And it picked up and was really special to people who were moving from apartment to apartment, it was the first product that they literally would take with them, they would pull it back up, because it was so easy to do that and take it with them to their next apartment. And I thought that's so bizarre, but nobody today would do that. You leave your floor behind you don't take it with you. But why not? I honestly,
Michael Goria:It's your investment.
Holiday Van Erem:You invested a lot of money in it. And I mean, I could pull up my laminate flooring. It's not gonna be as great a condition but you could just pull it up and bring it with you.
Michael Goria:Yeah, I think I've always been intrigued by laminate as a hardwood guy, I guess I consider myself it's a product that was made to as a alternative to hardwood and and so if I'm coming from my hardwood background, it was it's less than it's, but it's got some great benefits and features that in the right setting. It makes an absolute ton of sense. And so, you know, those are the types of products we want to see build and grow. And certainly it has. So, you know, I looked at, you know, kind of just the basic term of you know, what is laminate? You know, and and it's funny when you really look back, people thought, Oh, it was a type of hardwood flooring, er, yeah, that it gets related to hardwood a lot. And it's, it's not, I mean, there's no hardwood involved in the making of laminate flooring.
Holiday Van Erem:Yeah, so just the basic construction, it's a multi layer synthetic floor. And it was designed to be an alternative to hardwood or tile. You don't see a lot of tile laminate around anymore. But every once in a while it has its had its little fades and what it you know, when it was trendy. So it's fused together with a lamination process. And that's why we call it laminate. Similar to countertops, there's laminate countertops, similar type of process, you've got your photographic layer. So you've got your what we call paper versus on luxury vinyl, we call it an actual film, there's a difference in the type of paper. And then you'll have a clear coating over that, you know, the wear layer, clear coating over the top of the paper. And then you've got a melamine resin and a fiber board. And there's sometimes a couple different types of those cores, that kind of the mixture of what that inner layer is actually made out of. But they're all fairly similar.
Michael Goria:Yeah, and we can get into that in a little bit. But yeah, certainly the recipe of the core is where we get into water resistant versus a standard core.
Holiday Van Erem:Yeah. And then some have attached pad. And now, when we started selling TAS laminate bout, you know, maybe 13 - 14 years ago, we originally brought it on with an attach pad. And that was kind of a new thing for this area. There wasn't a lot of other attached pad laminate, so it was kind of a, we could add the pad and offer something that's new and different. And people loved it. We mean that was the thing. Now we can get it with the pad attach. And I feel like anytime we've tried to go back and so that doesn't have a pad attached. So like well, what do you do if you're the pad attached
Michael Goria:We are, T&A is synonymous with attached pad laminate. So many of our competitors aren't I mean, they most of what's out in the market does not have an attached pad. So it's interesting. We certainly are the Attach pad
Holiday Van Erem:Okay, yeah, provides a solution. And it label. makes it super DIY friendly, which is one of the reasons that I think laminate has stayed around for as long as it has easier to maintain than hardwood, easier to take care of, and doesn't take the skill set to install that you would with hardwood and laminate. There are a lot of installers install laminate, not everybody is capable of doing it themselves. Yeah, so there's a lot of great people to do it. Some of the new things that we see now are the water resistance and now the waterproof, we'll talk we'll dive in a little bit more into that in a minute. And then some of the layers though, the coatings have increased in their options and the different types and styles of coatings and they've some of them have anti scratch coatings and antimicrobial coatings and all sorts of fun things.
Michael Goria:Before we get too deep. I was looking at kind of the timeline of where you know, we we spoke about laminate started around 1977- 1978. You know, but it really got its big push into the United States between 1980-1988 was when there was kind of like, hey, laminate is a great flooring option. It's a little more inexpensive than traditional hardwood or certainly tile. So that was kind of when it was having its heyday with the first iterations of it. I was reading in 1989 was when the first direct pressure laminate meaning they actually used pressure to put it together and it made it a little more dimensionally stable gave it a few more features than its predecessor.
Holiday Van Erem:And at that point in time, all you had option wise were sheet vinyl, tile, hardwood, there really wasn't anything else free to use.
Michael Goria:Carpet
Holiday Van Erem:And carpet. Forget about carpet,
Michael Goria:Especially in the 70s and 80s.
Holiday Van Erem:To go with that green carpet you needed something. And so laminate came on and it was killing it for years. And then 2015 came around. Lumber Liquidators just did us in
Michael Goria:Yeah, that did that really hurt the laminate industry and there was some other issues with quality. You know, dog bowls, spills, your your dishwasher, you know, spills around the dishwasher. There was a lot of because it did not have a water resistant feature. It's swoll pretty easy. It would get in the joints and you'd have swelling issues if that water wasn't cleaned up quickly enough. Yeah. Yeah. And I first for folks who weren't in the industry in 2015. I think it's important to just to explain what happened with Lumber Liquidators, and this 60 minutes scandal just to explain what happened because I think from that point forward, all of a sudden people cared a lot more. And laminate started to have its next big competitor come in. And if you didn't really understand what had happened, I think people maybe not won't understand why it's having a comeback. Well, what happened to it? So Lumber Liquidators was cutting corners. I mean, that's really what it came down to. And, and we see this in luxury vinyl today. Yeah, companies who are cutting corners trying to cut out costs. And basically what they were doing was there were California certifications for formaldehyde levels. And instead of them working with a company who was all aboveboard, and doing exactly what they should be, they were putting labels on products that did not meet those certifications that had higher formaldehyde levels in it, than it should have to pass that California carb certification. Yeah, that's exactly what it is California carb compliancy, your certification that it's a matter of parts per million, and they weren't having the test done or just didn't care, it put a cloud over all laminate
Holiday Van Erem:Well it's funny, too, because this is a California certification. And that was the first thing as a sales support person, as a flooring distributor, we're getting calls all of a sudden from end users asking about, well, we've never had to have the certification before we're not in California. Why? Why do you care? But California puts in laws, and then it spreads. If California does something usually the rest of the country follows.
Michael Goria:Certainly in regards to environmental policies, California does lead the charge in the United States. And that's where a lot of them come out of and so when when they came out with their Carb compliancy, really the rest of the United States kind of took it as policy as well.
Holiday Van Erem:Yeah, and I'm not saying it's a bad thing, because it's a good thing to have that in place today. I don't think anybody has to be worried about formaldehyde levels in laminate flooring. That blew the doors off of it. There aren't companies who are really willing to do that anymore, because it costs a lot of people a lot of money. And Lumber Liquidators. It took them a long time to get back to what they are, what they have they exist today. And they took a lot of people down with them. And a lot of people suffered because of what what happened.
Michael Goria:When really the cloud was extended, not just to laminate but overall product from China and Southeast Asia, right? I mean, people were so worried about bringing in any product, because are they being truthful? Where's the testing lie. And that's, as you said, that's happening today in the SPC, LVT, market. It's happened in wood. That's why there's the the Lacey Act came about because people were harvesting illegal timber. And so now we have the Lacey Act. But those are important things to pay attention to. And that's something that T&A we, we hold in high regard. I mean, we have teams of people that work on our compliancy is making sure that we're getting product from vendors who are upholding certifications that we need and the standards that we need to meet.
Holiday Van Erem:Yeah. And when that when, in March 2015, after that happened, and we kind of figured out what was going on, and what we needed to know, we really were just starting to get in, we were still using brokers, and you know, working back and forth, we immediately started doing our own testing, we found a local company here, they're called Metal Test, and they're a fantastic company. They do testing on black boxes. I mean, they're aerospace industry. So super, super great company, we happen to know them as a, you know, relationship with them. They invested in all of the equipment that we would need to do all of these testing on our own. So not only are we asking the factories to do the testing, and to make a product that meets the specifications we're asking for, we're double checking it when we get here. So we immediately started doing that. It cost us a lot of money to do that. But it is worth it for us to know that when we say it is this thickness it has this wear layer it has the scratch resistant and meets these ASTM standards it does because we've tested it and made sure that it does.
Michael Goria:Yeah. And that's probably something we don't preach enough. You know, I don't know that a lot of distributors are doing secondary testing, from the, you know, the vendors, they're getting products from the word taking every new product that we get, and we have those tests done. And then from time to time, we spot check and make sure and again, it's at a cost. But if something like another 60 Minutes interview comes out, and we find that there's people trying to cut corners, we're able to provide the testing to our customers and give them the faith that hey, our products are solid.
Holiday Van Erem:Yeah, in addition to that, we also started employing people in the other countries that we are sourcing material from to make sure that everybody is aboveboard. We send our own employees to those factories to vet them out to meet the owners to make sure that we feel completely comfortable in their practices, how the factory is, you know, running, pollution, all sorts of things. There are lots of factories that we've said no to. No thanks. You don't meet our standards. We'll go someplace else. That's where I feel very comfortable selling TAS products, because we spend the time and the money to make sure that we're getting quality products.
Michael Goria:No, it is it's important. But yeah, it sure changed the industry. You know, you spoke a little bit about laminate facing, you know, not only this investigation and kind of being called out with Lumber Liquidators issue, but then the rise of
Holiday Van Erem:waterproof flooring, uh-ha for so many years, we have not cared about what happens to the floor. If water gets on it. You clean it up, you have to replace a board. I mean, your carpet gets stained clean it I mean, there's never
Michael Goria:insurance claims. Yes.
Holiday Van Erem:So all of a sudden, we start utilizing plastic to make flooring and Holy smokes. It,
Michael Goria:Has forever changed the industry. Yes, forever in the terminology that's used.
Holiday Van Erem:So waterproof flooring comes on. And unfortunately laminate it's not waterproof, right? Like you mentioned, you if that dog bowl spills, and you leave it for numerous days, you're gonna have the corners, it started swelling up, you're gonna have some issues, your refrigerators leaking, you don't notice it for a while. You have problems and you know, things have to be replaced. But it sure did make people who make laminate flooring either decide to not make it anymore, right? Just get out of it and start moving into the luxury vinyl, SPC, WPC, or what we found in the companies that we continue to partner with is we need to re invent laminate flooring.
Michael Goria:Yeah. And I love renovation, I think it's so fun to see products, you know, grow with, you know, the necessary times.
Holiday Van Erem:Yeah, so we've got water resistant, that's the first thing that starts changing. And companies do that in lots of different ways. We have several different products that we it's the core, that's water resistant, the core is made out of different material, or it's the coating that's applied after the fact, we've got different ones that you know, meet different water resistance levels, we have some that we call waterproof, and there's throughout the whole spectrum, and you kind of get what you pay for. If you want something cheaper, it's not going to have the larger longer warranty for water that some of the other products have.
Michael Goria:Right. So I think it's important now to if we're going to talk waterproof, water resistant, you know, to say, so many of these policies or warranties are topical, yeah, water resistant, or waterproof. So what I mean by that is, when the water is on top of the product, you're good to go, that dog bowl spills, or your dog laps it up and dribbles that everywhere. And if that water stays on the floor for six hours, but it's not a problem. But if you have a dishwasher flood and you're gone for the weekend, and it gets not only on top of your floor, but it goes down by the baseboards, and then under your flooring. Well now you have an underneath issue, right? So you could have mold, you could have disruption with your, if you have a plywood sub floor, there's a lot of issues that could happen. So that's where the warranty would really stop. And now you've got an insurance claim. And so we can talk we'll talk a little bit more about the topical part, but we just want to make sure people understand these warranties are written for topical.
Holiday Van Erem:And I mean, honestly, as much as I love WPC, and SPC and the waterproofness of it, who is taking that floor up and drying it outside and then putting it back in when you've got a flood that bad that you've got an insurance claim you're not reusing that product. The insurance company isn't saying hey, yeah, go ahead and put it back in.
Michael Goria:Right. It's not indestructible. I was traveling this was many years ago, I was in Texas, and right after some severe hurricanes and move through and one of the gentlemen that was with me to point you know, his home unfortunately had flooded I mean, they had like 20 feet of water in their house. And he's like, I'm not taking my flooring out and pressure washing it off, you know, the amount of waste and issues that that that are on that floor and that's going in the trash with everything else in his house nationally. So yeah, it's not made for that.
Holiday Van Erem:Oh, no. And so the expect, I think what I don't like is that the expectation should be that laminate should be able to be pulled up and put back in right it's you're not going to do that with waterproof SPC. So why should the standard be the laminate could do that.
Michael Goria:Yeah. And you know, the other issue is when that floor is taken back up as good as that sounds, you have the the opportunity to break the joints. Yes. damage the joints. And so now you put, you take it all up, you put it down well, if you damage any of the joints even a little bit now that floor squeaking or peeking and having issues. And you wonder why? Well, none of these floors are bulletproof.
Holiday Van Erem:They're not made to go back. No, no, they're just not.
Michael Goria:No, traditionally, you can do some board replacement. And there's some installers that do a very good job of pulling out a row or two and replacing a board. But overall, if you have a flood or a major water issue, do you need to replace your floor. Yeah, it's unfortunate.
Holiday Van Erem:But that's what it is. And I think laminate has done, laminate manufacturers have done a really great job in finding these new ways to innovate the product, and give it some kind of water resistance story. So as a homeowner, you should feel comfortable, if you've got, I've got two large dogs, I've got a kid, I have a husband, they spill a lot of stuff. I have the dog cannot drink inside the bowl, it's all over the floor. And I don't feel like I need to clean it up right away. I'm gonna let somebody just evaporate on its own. Because I feel like my floor my laminate floor is going to be just fine. And honestly, it's not meant to last forever. So even that's the reality of it.
Michael Goria:Yeah. So I think we should speak a little bit to then what gives it that topical warranty? What what makes the new technology better than what we'll call standard laminate? Water resistant laminate?
Holiday Van Erem:Hmm, yeah. So. So the coatings, that's, that's the first thing. And there's some coatings that require you to do an edge sealing after if you've cut any of the edges. Some don't. And that's, I mean, that's the big topical part of it. And then there's the locking system is the locking system tight enough that when you click all of them together, nothing's gonna get down inside those grooves.
Michael Goria:Yeah, so we recently brought on a product called Inhaus Lamdura, I should say call it Lamdura by InHaus. And they have a locking system called mega lock. So mega lock actually has two what are called ledges that don't allow the water to get through to the sub floor so that it is such a tight locking system, that the water would actually live kind of within the floor and never get down under so you wouldn't have mold or subfloor issues. Yeah, they also have a core that is harder pressed and typically made of spruce, which is a more water resistant wood. That would keep water from them swelling that floor up and causing issues.
Holiday Van Erem:Yeah, I mean, check, check, check all the boxes, very nice coating that's going to keep it from you know, sinking down in logging system, it's going to keep it from running down underneath the plank. And then in addition to that, you got a little core that's got a little extra special secret sauce in there that's making it just a little bit more resistant to that water.
Michael Goria:Yeah, and I think we we start talking waterproof, and people just oh, I've got to have well what do you need it for? You know, we live in the northwest, it rains a ton. So if you walk on your floor with your wet boots, you know, maybe it's even snowed here and a little snow falls off your boots, that amount of water is not going to ruin probably even a decently made standard laminate,
Holiday Van Erem:Yeah in my house, I got it cranked up to 80, it's evaporating pretty fast.
Michael Goria:We live in different houses you know, at the same time, so we have to make sure we manage expectations. What are people really thinking about? If it's just day to day use, and your dog and your kids, my kids can never figure out how to use the ice machine. You know, and half those ice machines work for a year and then you know, are dropping cubes when you're not even home. So, you know, but for situations like that laminate flooring is a is a tremendous option for your home because it's so durable.
Holiday Van Erem:Yeah. And you know what is more important to me? Is the scratch resistance.
Michael Goria:Absolutely.
Holiday Van Erem:Because that to me is going to be way more of a problem than the random water right? Especially again, I've got dogs with dog nails. I've got cats who are dragging stuff all over the house, my kids scratching things around across the floor, the rock in the shoe that nobody took the shoe off. That is what I'm more worried about. And luxury vinyl is not great for that.
Michael Goria:It's not and certainly hardwood has its issues as well.
Holiday Van Erem:Yeah, so I laminate they have done lots of things to improve the durability but laminate has always been really great for scratch resistance.
Michael Goria:So, is it because of that melamine layer? Is that really what adds that hardness?
Holiday Van Erem:Yeah, and so you're adding that extra layer so you've got that hardness and just the actual core of the product is a lot harder than luxury vinyl. The coating is really what does it though,
Michael Goria:right? Right? No, I mean, again, we hear all the time but pound for pound. We believe laminate to be likely the best product for busy homes right
Holiday Van Erem:Hmm. In addition to that, I also firmly believe that laminate has the best visuals. Yeah. The way that it comes through on the paper through the coating, I think looks so much better than luxury vinyl. Luxury vinyl for as good as it is still doesn't have the clarity that laminate tends to have.
Michael Goria:Yeah, no, I agree with you there. We've certainly seen that with some of the new products we brought on landmark and visions. Landmark, you know, some of the visuals in landmark are just absolutely stunning. Yeah, I think we hit a homerun with that collection. I think we'll have it around for a long time based on the price points that it's at. But we fooled people all the time, when we show them that and they think instantly. That's hardwood.
Holiday Van Erem:Yeah, they do. And the digital printing options, make the pattern repeat even less and less. Yeah, it's just so much more realistic.
Michael Goria:Yeah, I agree. So another one that I would feel the same way about is the Altitude Yeah, we brought on Altitude Altitudes by Kronospan. And it's a what it's a nine and a half by nearly 87 and a half inches long. Big long, wide.
Holiday Van Erem:And what luxury vinyl do you see at that size? Nothing. You can't really do that outside of hardwood, laminate the only other product you're gonna get at that size.
Michael Goria:Yeah. And it just has these incredible visuals that make you think this is real hardwood flooring. Yes. Yeah,
Holiday Van Erem:We fooled many people, when we were doing our roadshow to thought Altitude was real hardwood.
Michael Goria:Well, the other thing I like about it is so many people want wide, long hardwood. I mean, that's just it looks prestigious, it has this great visual, but it's so expensive when you get to that width and that length. But with Altitude. What a great alternative. If that's more in your price budget.
Holiday Van Erem:Yeah, yeah. Hands down to me laminate is the go to, I have laminate in my home, if I ever replaced my flooring, I would probably go right back to a water resistant laminate. I can't picture myself never having dogs. So I don't think hardwood is really ever in my future. Um, but also the price point. I mean, I don't, I would rather be able to do a little bit more for less, I'd rather be able to get a really great product at a better price point not spend quite as much and then not feel bad. Like if some if it does scratch or dent or something happens. I mean, I didn't spend so much that I'm devastated over it.
Michael Goria:Right. So I want to spend just a couple minutes, making sure we talked about AC ratings. Yes, I know. We talked about it briefly on a previous podcast. But for those of you who haven't heard that laminate hardness, and the finishes is actually based on AC ratings. Of course, we've we've talked about this as well, every product has a different a different way to clarify that. But AC stands for abrasion class or abrasion coefficient. And it's testing that they do. So what it started with was basically taking a piece of sandpaper and seeing how many revolutions they could do on it before it wore through the film or the paper that we talked about earlier. Now it incorporates several more tests in there, whether it's moisture resistance, or there's just a lot of other things and capsulated but it's rated levels one through five, one being kind of entry level residential five being somewhat heavy commercial. So.
Holiday Van Erem:And for the most part, most laminates that we sell are an AC three or above. So they're much more than most people need for their home. And we are selling laminate center and AC five so completely unnecessary. But that means that it has a fantastic finish you're not going to get dents scratches scuffing, you really don't have to be concerned about it at all it's going to it's going to work in any part of your house.
Michael Goria:Yeah, really uphold to your daily living.
Holiday Van Erem:And if you've got I mean especially if you're running a little office out of your home if you've got a mom and pop little shops or a little boutique or something so perfect for to put in there too.
Michael Goria:It is it's a great option. Yeah, absolutely. One thing I was going to ask you because we get people who want Oh, I have to have 12 millimeter. I have to have thicker is better. What do we...
Holiday Van Erem:Yeah, you know, so, I have a seven millimeter laminate in my home. Okay, I started home. I'm buying, everything has to be bought. My budget is very small. But I bought a floor that I still love. I think it's beautiful. I have had zero problems with it and I have a very busy household. So seven millimeter to me was perfectly fine. In a 12 millimeter is about the thickness of a half inch thick hardwood.
Michael Goria:Exactly. Yep.
Holiday Van Erem:So and that's pretty standard in our, you know, this this region, most people like to go with a half inch thick hardwood. So if you want the like premium, best of the best, we sell a lot of 12 millimeter laminate. And that was for us to when we were doing building the TAS flooring, um collections. We had some of the cheaper stuff. And we thought, You know what, let's try the premium and just see what happens. And we were shocked at how well we sold 12 millimeter pad attached laminate to people who we thought are blowing up at home centers buying the cheapest of the cheap. Or we can go to our flooring dealers and give them a premium product and they are selling it really, really well.
Michael Goria:Yeah, I think a lot of its perception. It was interesting. One of our new vendors, I was talking to asking if they had a thicker product. And they said you know what's great about 12 millimeter, it makes you taller. That was the only in their minds. It was really the only advantage is it butts up to some stuff better certainly in the Northwest where we use a lot of half inch type products. That is helpful. But But performance wise, a seven or eight millimeter laminate is going to perform just as well or better than a 12 millimeter laminate.
Holiday Van Erem:Yeah. Especially if it has the same AC rating, the 12 millimeter laminate, there's really no reason that you have to have the thicker product. Yeah. If you said if you are trying to match a certain level in the home, you're trying to put up against a tile and a bathroom or something you might need a thicker product. But you don't have to.
Michael Goria:Yeah, I related somewhat similar to veneer thickness and hardwood. Everybody thinks they need a thicker veneer, I need to be able to refinish it, you know, 22 times, we'll never refinished product in their lifetime. Yeah, it's very I mean, it makes you a little bit taller. So that perceived value and a 12 millimeter is a big deal. But it's it doesn't necessarily mean it's going to outperform a thinner product.
Holiday Van Erem:Yeah. and it's perfectly fine to sell those premium products and let people get that perceived value. Our customers do really well at that. Yeah, they do. And that's great. I mean that everybody's making a little bit more money with a premium product, you don't have to sell the cheapest of the cheap. But if it if it has a water resistance story, if it has an AC rating, that's an AC three, that product is is great. Yeah, there's no problems with it.
Michael Goria:I agree, especially in that in that home. So we've talked about the benefits a lot, but there's cons. I mean, there's cons pros and cons to everything, right? Yeah. So what would you say, as you did your research, I found a few.
Holiday Van Erem:As a marketer. The one thing that I have been bothered by for the last several years is that people, our manufacturing partners that we work with, stopped calling it laminate, because they thought that by calling it laminate that they were not gonna be able to sell it the people don't like the name laminate. So it's apparently that's a con. I mean, they're just calling it laminate. People don't necessarily understand the product. They've heard something bad about it. They don't think it's it's not called water resistant, waterproof flooring. So it's you know, it's not what I want. So I mean, that's that's the first thing is just apparently calling it a laminate is a con.
Michael Goria:One thing I came across is it can be a little more noisy, if especially certainly if the underlayment isn't good. So we talked about laminate that doesn't come with a pad attached. So if you're if you're just using a maybe it's the cheapest underlayment you could find or that's what you could afford at the time. There's much better underlayment now that will help with this. But the early iterations of laminate kind of sounded hollow or had a very hollow kind of click to it as you walked across it that was a perceived negative to some in the market.
Holiday Van Erem:Yeah. And certainly, if you go to a big box store and you buy the cheapest laminate that they have, it's not going to perform all that great, right probably got a pretty low AC rating. It's probably thin. Who knows if it's really made of really great material. You bought a cheap product, so you really shouldn't expect a ton from it to do what.
Michael Goria:You get what you pay for.
Holiday Van Erem:Exactly.
Michael Goria:Yeah. I also came across there is some chemicals involved in producing laminate.
Holiday Van Erem:Yeah, it has formaldehyde in it. Yeah, it's a level that is perfectly acceptable, as long as it doesn't max out your California Carb standard. But formaldehyde is in a lot of things. It's in trees, it's in a whole lot of things. It's just is it exists. So yes, there are some chemicals that go with it there's the formaldehyde that's there. So if if you're super sensitive, and you're priced the flooring is probably not your least is probably not your most worrisome product that you're putting in your home. But some people it bothers them.
Michael Goria:It does and then I was excited to be able to talk about Orca. Yes. Oh, hi. Um, so we have a new product, a laminate called Orca. It's a what is it a 13 millimeter overall thickness. So 12 millimeter with a one millimeter attach pad, it's an AC five. And it's actually PVC free.
Holiday Van Erem:It's not technically a laminate, hybrid product. And we put it in the laminate category because it just fits a little bit better there. It's made of wood fiber. So kind of like the core of a laminate would be. But it's not really a laminate. And it's not really an SPC or luxury vinyl. So I think those I think those products are really fun. Yeah, it's a whole new type of product that we get to sell. And people get to experiment with in their homes.
Michael Goria:Yeah. And for us, I think the strategy is finding solutions. So if you have that customer that is a little more bent to low emissions, more environmentally friendly, Orca is a great option. Yeah. You know, if they want to widen long and it fits in their budget, Altitude is a great option. So, you know, we're trying to find products that fit, you know, really every budget and need. And that's what we're you know, that's hopefully the goal was what we're bringing, you know, our customers.
Holiday Van Erem:Yeah. Now it's time to Walk the Plank. Yes, it is. And we've got, we're throwing down the gauntlet today. So we had producer Jose here, and our marketing assistant, Toni.
Michael Goria:Pick sides
Holiday Van Erem:Pick sides for us decide what we were going to talk about. And we're going to battle it out.
Michael Goria:We're battling it out. So the battle is looselay versus glue down.
Holiday Van Erem:Yes. Okay. So this is Walk the Plank, the segment where we debate some ridiculous pet peeve that only flooring professionals would understand. And we're going to find out whether we can decide which one is better. Right now. Okay, well, let's lay and glue down.
Michael Goria:Well, ladies first.
Holiday Van Erem:Oh, thank you.
Michael Goria:Yes.
Holiday Van Erem:So I was given the looselay products as my products to fend. And I really tried to focus on luxury vinyl, and sheet vinyl, because those are the two products where I feel like customers are pretty hesitant to traditionally looselay either one. Now, I think that there are markets I'm gonna start with sheet vinyl, because I thought this was kind of strange when I started to learn about sheet vinyl. The couple different manufacturers that we've used over the years, traditionally, you glue down your sheet vinyl, and you can do a hard set or you can do pressure sensitive and be able to peel it back up and readjust it. But you can also loose lay it. And I always wondered, why do customers not do that? I don't it seems really simple. And I mean honestly, if you think about today's uses for sheet vinyl, it's very small rooms, little bathrooms, little powder rooms, a laundry room and mud room, those are usually maybe a little small kitchen, you're not usually doing really large rooms anymore. Little accent rooms. So they're small rooms. Uh, so I feel like you can like really easily cut the size you need and make your little you know, cutting adjustments to fit in. Just slap that puppy down. I don't think you need to worry about having it glued down. Um, honestly, we don't glue rugs down. We just throw rugs on the floor. Yeah, they're just loosely laying there. I think doing a loose lay sheet vinyl, I don't think you really have any problems.
Michael Goria:And I'm asking this for real not to bring up adhesive. But do you have to perimeter glue something like that would you be?
Holiday Van Erem:Yeah, so unfortunately, with most loose lay products, you should do a little perimeter glue. And some of it's not the full perimeter. Some of it is just a little bit but your, I know, Jose's over here. I didn't create the installation instructions, a little bit of glue. But you don't have to, but it is recommended. Yeah. But for sheet vinyl to me it seems like that makes super DIY friendly. And super easy and simple. And honestly you could if you don't like it in a few years, pull up really easy and throw it on a different one. Now when it comes to luxury vinyl though, I think the looselay luxury vinyl products that are meant for residential use. You should not be loose laying luxury vinyl in commercial settings. There's just way too much going on, rolling loads and things happening that you just shouldn't be doing that. But for residential settings, the customer installation is to net fit it so it's real nice and tight against the walls. And it has a gripping back on the back of the plank which is keeping it from moving around. It's also pushed all nice and tight against each other and the product is thick and heavy. Yeah, it is, it's heavier than most luxury vinyl is nice and heavy, it's laying down gravity's pulling against it. When you have it all locked in there in the room, you should not have any problems as long as you have done the installation properly. And to me, again, it seems like a really simple way to have a scratch in it, you've got a problem with a plank, pull it up, a lot of people do the like a toilet plunger, pull the plank up, plop anyone down, you don't have to worry about the tongue and grooves on the edges to get it all back in. You don't have to, like re-glue it in. There's not saws involved or anything. It's really super DIY friendly. Especially if you're like house flipping. I feel like a lot of times people who are buying houses that have been flipped are kind of coming in and doing their own flooring and stuff after the fact, usually, they're coming in trying to do stuff cheap, it's a great way to throw in some new flooring in several different spaces really cheaply. And then the next person can just pull them up really easily and put out what they really want.
Michael Goria:Ya know, you've made a good case for looselay.
Holiday Van Erem:I feel like it makes it really simple and easy.
Michael Goria:It does. It does. Absolutely, I think, you know, certainly as I looked at this, from a glue down standpoint, what I really came away with is glue down is a is a somewhat cheap insurance policy to make sure that floor is not going anywhere.
Holiday Van Erem:A sticky, messy, insurance policy,
Michael Goria:But an insurance policy nonetheless. Oh, yeah. You know, and so that's why most people glue glue down is expansion and contraction. So if you want to go into larger spaces, I understand your your small rooms, I'll take care of the larger rooms and glue down. You know, so you can go larger spaces without transitions and nobody wants a T mold in the middle of their grateful you know, their great room, you know, that goes from, you know, maybe their kitchen to you know, to their dining room to their, you know, TV area, their living space, they want to be able to see that seamlessly flow without, you know, bumping their toe on needless T mold. So gluing the product down, allows for less expansion and contraction holds that floor down tight once you put it in. It's in forever. So you don't have to worry.
Holiday Van Erem:Yes, forever, Michael, what else? What about what I want to change it? I've got it. There's all that glue? You do?
Michael Goria:Yeah, you do. But it's been down, and you haven't had any issues. So you're happily pulling this product up? You know? And then of course, rolling loads, you brought that up. And I agree we're not really talking too much from a commercial standpoint. But if you are applying these in a commercial standpoint, heavy traffic, heavy rolling loads, you have to glue down a product.
Holiday Van Erem:Yes, absolutely. There is no reason you should be loose laying or even doing click system though, in commercial settings. Let's just make sure everybody understands that is not recommended.
Michael Goria:No, and we would not warrant anything like that. So, you know, so glue down has its advantages, mainly with just your, your insurance policy, wanting to feel good about that floor been down for a long time. So what I come away with or what I think about is, as we talked about with so many products, there's a time and place for everything. Yes. And no one product is perfect for every scenario or floor.
Holiday Van Erem:Great point.
Michael Goria:So we've got to be flexible, and we've got to educate our customers, so they can manage and set expectations and educate their customers to put in the correct floor the correct way. Yes, right. We both agree, I think that that loosely has its advantages. And I would love to be able to go in, slam a plunger down, pull up that one plank in a hardwood setting, throw in the new one and you're done. You know, think of the expense or the how much of an expense it would take away from a hardwood claim that has that one board in the middle or even a laminate claim. However, we do get a lot of seasonal and movement in this area. Yeah. And so glue down, like we talked about in larger spaces. Certainly commercial settings is a must.
Holiday Van Erem:Yeah. And you know, honestly, people get a little nervous about net fitting a floor.
Michael Goria:Yeah, they do.
Holiday Van Erem:Especially luxury vinyl, where you're going to have some contraction and expansion. The problem is more your home than the floor. Yeah, your home is really what's moving the most. So if you're feeling like you're not super any square, and things are moving around a lot and might not be the best option for you. I think that we can agree that there is a time and place for each type of installation certainly is. shouldn't be afraid, though to try new things.
Michael Goria:Agree. Agree. And so I think that there is a certainly a place for looselay I actually love it. I think that has a lot of advantages. I know I ruined Jose's day.
Holiday Van Erem:I know what you know, I love glue-down.
Michael Goria:Oh, oh, Holiday wins the battle, I guess.
Holiday Van Erem:Wow. Because I held out the longest from admitting love the other I do, I appreciate the customer who feels like it's worth it just to do that extra step to make sure they're not going to have problems. Again, there is a time and place. And that's why we offer so many different types of we'd have to, you have to have something that is good for every type of scenario. And having one product that can have multiple installation options is fantastic. And we've got some really great ones. Explorer is a great product that does that. And on the luxury vinyl side, and then our Tarkett Home products on sheet vinyl, you've got three different installation options that you can use for whatever you feel more comfortable with.
Michael Goria:Yeah, and they're gonna we're gonna get all those. Everybody's gonna, you know, we're gonna have installers use every application that's out there for that specific setting. And if done right, what will be a very successful installation.
Holiday Van Erem:All right, so Jose says you lose. I'm fine with that.
Michael Goria:It's one of many losses in my life.
Holiday Van Erem:I wonder is Jose just afraid of me?
Michael Goria:I think so. Yes. Yeah. So really what we learned from this is Jose is afraid of Holiday.
Jose Morales:Listen man.
Unknown:Thank you for holding
Michael Goria:Walk the Plank is not supposed to be that long.
Holiday Van Erem:He's trying to wrap it up. I'm talking too much.
Michael Goria:No, no.
Holiday Van Erem:Well, I think we had a successful episode here, Michael.
Michael Goria:Yes, I agree. I mean, I think this is great. This is what the platform of the podcast is for is to educate our customers to engage in product and product categories. So I think it's been it's been another good one.
Holiday Van Erem:Yeah, love it. All right. What the Floor is a T&A Supply Company Inc. original production. You can find out more about us at T A supply.com or T A S flooring.com.
Michael Goria:This show was produced by Jose Morales with help from Toni Collier and Jessica Riser. Hosted by Holiday Van Erem and Michael Goria.
Holiday Van Erem:Tell us what you think of the show by emailing us at WTF podcast at ta supply.com Send us a little note let us know how we're doing we'd love it. Ah ha on social media, you can use the hashtag what the floor podcast. Reach out and let us know what you think we're always interested to hear if you have ideas and topics for the show, feedback or you just want to tell Michael that he was wrong.
Michael Goria:Perfect. I've heard it from many.
Holiday Van Erem:All right. That's it.
Michael Goria:Thanks Holiday. Appreciate it.
Holiday Van Erem:Yeah, thanks. WTF!
Michael Goria:All the way.