On this episode of What the Floor we take a deep dive into Claims. We talk about the processes that work and the ones that don’t, what the timeline looks like, the different types of claims, who gets involved and what information is truly needed. We won’t guarantee that your claims will be approved but we guarantee you are going to learn some really good information about how to get the best possible results from the process.
This episodes’ Walk the Plank is a full-on rant by our very own Michael G about why Janka is “jank-y”.
Links
Customer Support Page – Where to file a claim
Janka Hardness Test Wikipedia page
What the Floor is a T&A Supply Company Inc original production. You can find out more about us at tasupply.com or tasflooring.com. This show is produced by Jose Morales with help from Toni Collier and Jessica Riser. Tell us what you think of the show at wtfpodcast@tasupply.com or #whatthefloorpodcast on social media to let us know what you think.
On this episode of What the Floor we take a deep dive into Claims. We talk about the processes that work and the ones that don’t, what the timeline looks like, the different types of claims, who gets involved and what information is truly needed. We won’t guarantee that your claims will be approved but we guarantee you are going to learn some really good information about how to get the best possible results from the process.
This episodes’ Walk the Plank is a full-on rant by our very own Michael G about why Janka is “jank-y”.
Links
Customer Support Page – Where to file a claim
Janka Hardness Test Wikipedia page
What the Floor is a T&A Supply Company Inc original production. You can find out more about us at tasupply.com or tasflooring.com. This show is produced by Jose Morales with help from Toni Collier and Jessica Riser. Tell us what you think of the show at wtfpodcast@tasupply.com or #whatthefloorpodcast on social media to let us know what you think.
This is what the floor from TNA Supply Company Inc, a podcast for the flooring industry. I'm Holiday Van Erem.
Michael Goria:And I'm Michael Goria. We're going to explore the hot topics of the flooring industry with a little humor and a new set of eyes.
Holiday Van Erem:Michael, today's gonna be an interesting episode.
Michael Goria:Yeah, I have mixed emotions about it already.
Holiday Van Erem:It's complicated it's a complicated subject.
Michael Goria:Yeah, there was part of me that, as I kind of did my prep and everything, I worried about speaking out of turn, but I guess, then I thought about it more, the goal of the podcast is to engage conversation, to not only help teach others, but for others to teach us, get feedback.
Holiday Van Erem:That's a good point. So today's topic is claims. And it is very complicated. And we're all, we are only aware of the parts of it that we're aware of, the parts that we engaged with, the parts that we're familiar with. So when we talk about claims, today, we may discuss parts of it that are our interpretation of how our customers feel, or how their customer feels or the temperature that we get from the manufacturer. But if you represent one of those groups, and you feel like we're not representing you properly, we would love to hear from you.
Michael Goria:Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's just so many parts and pieces, kind of like we started with it, that go into claims, and there's so many people involved, and there's emotions involved. And so how do you do it perfect every time you don't, the goal of this is to go through the processes, from our standpoint, I guess, is what we're trying to say. And help people understand where we're coming from.
Holiday Van Erem:Yeah, we had some requests from our sales reps and some listeners to talk about claims. So that's why we're going to do it. Um, but it was one of the things that we had on our list of possible subjects, it is something that we deal with every day, no claim is alike. They're all different. They're all unique, and have their own unique situations. So we're going to do some generalities. And by no means, by the end of this conversation, are we saying if you do these things, your claim will be approved the way that you want it? And you're gonna get what you want out of the situation?
Michael Goria:Yeah, yeah, the goal would be to then, hey, if I, oh, maybe I could do this ahead of time. This is the information I could gather, that's those little bits of information might help process your claim quicker. Maybe you get the result that you're looking for more, you're able to help that end user out that much quicker. Yeah.
Holiday Van Erem:So I think the goal today is to discuss all the different ins and outs of the claims process. And we're really targeting this conversation to flooring distributor sales reps, and flooring dealers. For the most part. We're not going to talk about freight claims, we're going to talk about kind of the two most common claims that we deal with. Yeah, fully installed and partially installed. Right. Okay, so what is the difference, Michael, between a fully installed claim, and a partially installed claim?
Michael Goria:That's a good question. I think, ultimately, partially, I'll start with partially installed claims, there's opportunity for resolution right away, there's opportunity to stop. And for us to react to reach out, maybe we find new or different products that can be installed. But that floor can be corrected, virtually on the spot. Whereas a fully installed claim has to go through the warranty process. And that's a far bigger and more kind of arduous timeline than a partially installed claim.
Holiday Van Erem:Yeah, and I think we should just give a few, a few seconds here to explain our, like best practices and recommendations for partially installed claims, you can go to our website and go to the claims section, and you can pick this is a partially installed claim, when you're submitting your form, and those immediately get directed to a different area of our company. They're not going to our normal claims folks are going to people who are there to resolve problems, they have access to make decisions and they have access to material to try to get things solved quickly. Like you said, we want those things to happen fast.
Michael Goria:Yeah, I mean, we specifically have a resolution specialist that is dedicated to sorting material going through that particular run number seeing if the problem continues to exist throughout the whole run, or was it just a partial, you know, couple of boxes that got you know, peppered you know, within that run number finding moldings that more coordinate, that's that person's specific job day in and day out.
Holiday Van Erem:Yeah, if you've got a tear in your sheet vinyl, that happened in the transportation process, if there's a weird mark down the side of it, or that runs into it, those, these are the things that when we ask you to and the manufacturer asks you to inspect the material before it's installed, to look for defects and possible problems ahead of the installation. That's the reason that we asked you to do that is to try to find those things fast, so that we can try to solve those problems quickly.
Michael Goria:that every board has the same pattern, repeat. Oh, that's a problem. Now maybe that box was just boxed that way and we kick that out, we get you a new box and on you go. The hardest part with partial installations is you've got installers on site, that you're paying to install the floor. And now we have to pull them off, we have to pay them for you know, sitting around or coming in and picking up you know, additional material. So there's certainly a cost into it. However, it's much less than a fully installed claim where they installed the same pattern throughout the entire floor.
Holiday Van Erem:And in my mind, it'd be way better to stop the problem then, then to have it completely installed. And then the homeowners pissed off really bad. And then we're trying to fix the problem.
Michael Goria:Well, and then there's just so many things that go into it when it's fully installed and responsibility. And we can react so much quicker when you stop, you give us you know, the amount of information that we asked for, and then we're able to react that much quicker.
Holiday Van Erem:Yep. So that's the big difference between those. When we're talking about a fully installed claim, I think the next thing we want to talk about is what are the steps, and kind of what the timeline is that's involved in those different steps. So step one is usually when we get involved, that's our step one, but step one really needs to be when the homeowner or the installer is contacting the flooring dealer. That is step number one. And what I've been told from our claims department that is happening less and less, is that the flooring dealer is taking the time to go and look at the issue in person
Michael Goria:and truly validate a claim versus a complaint.
Holiday Van Erem:Ah ha, yes. So a lot of times that flooring dealer is calling one of our sales reps and asking them to go look at it, or just telling them I need you to fill out the paperwork, or our sales rep is just reporting into the website to fill out the paperwork. But you've got to, you've got to go back and take a look at it. So many times it is for issues that are not going to be resolved in the claims process. And that process can take quite a while. So to go that many months down the road and not get the result that anybody's looking for. It's just a lot, a lot of wasted time and a lot of upset people.
Michael Goria:Yeah. And so often, there are what are called complaints where there may be a concern or just something they didn't like, and the dealer will go and set reset that expectation, right? They'll communicate and they'll make sure hey, actually, maybe it'll bring the sample board know, this is the right color. Here's why. Here's the variation that this particular board shows, you know, and help walk them through. Now I think we're good to go. Thanks for stopping, that's important. But also you can continue on.
Holiday Van Erem:Yeah. So if the flooring dealer really feels like there is a claim situation, they're reaching out to us, the easiest way to file a claim with us is going onto our website, tasupply.com. Go into the claims area, clicking on fully installed and filling out the paperwork. It is very important for the person who knows the most information about the claim to be the one to fill out the paperwork. It solves a couple of different things. One, it's accurate information. And two, it's the most information up front. A lot of times we get a lot of half filled out forms that don't come with any photos. They don't have really great descriptions. And it just causes a lot of extra time being spent trying to identify what the problem is.
Michael Goria:homeowner pick out you know, the right floor that can take a lot of time getting the product, you know if it's been on backorder or even if it's in stock, getting it to the job site, there's just so many things that we've already done. We've already put in all this work, we've essentially made our money and now we've got to go back and reinvest in this claim that's not going to pay me you know more and that's very hard to do, but I can't stress enough how important it is to do your best to gather as much information as possible, and submit that information as quickly as possible. To T&A Supply.
Holiday Van Erem:And with that information, we need photos, we need a lot of photos, we need a couple of different types of photos. So if you can take photos of whatever the actual problem is nice, clear evidence, here's close up of what the issue is. But also a lot of manufacturers now are also requiring large full room photos so that they can get a better idea of what's happening around the edges of the room. Is this an isolated issue? Is it happening multiple times over and over in different spots? Is there something else going on in that room, that they can immediately realize, that's what's causing that problem, and they're gonna want to see photos, if there's window coverings on the windows, that kind of, they just want to see the situation.
Michael Goria:And we just don't have the excuse anymore of I don't have a camera. Every one of us has a very nice camera for the most part. I mean, even average phones have great cameras on them. And so you can get, you know, micro close and show whether it's a, you know, a check in the wood, or that small lift, or you can show the whole room because you can span out I mean, there's just the camera capabilities on our phones, has really, and should help the claims process.
Holiday Van Erem:Yeah, if we get those photos up front, it saves a lot of time, because we're going to send it to the manufacturer. And they're going to come back and ask for photos. So if you can send them in right at the get go. We're not wasting a lot of time.
Michael Goria:One of the photos I'd like them to include is the box and label.
Holiday Van Erem:Yes, I was gonna mention that.
Michael Goria:It's just what material is it and then get us that run number. And that is so helpful. Like we mentioned, we have this resolution specialist, they can go out and check, do we have any more in the warehouse. And then if we do, let's check that product. If there's a problem with it, we'll put it on hold and make sure nobody else gets the same issue, or, Hey, we're not seeing any of these issues within this run number. Let's get you a few extra boxes and you run.
Holiday Van Erem:All you have to do is take a photo, there should be still some material leftover, you should usually be keeping little attic stock, even if it's just for a home in case something gets damaged. Get us picture that little label on the side, it's got a serial number, a run number, it'll have the SKU and the product name and stuff, it helps verify that we're sending it to the right manufacturer, that it is really what you think it was. And that we can go double check the material, and the manufacturers are gonna want to do the same thing at their factory too.
Michael Goria:So and oftentimes it looks like gibberish. I mean, it's it's a bunch of numbers and barcodes and all of that. However, it is one of the most important facets of the claim.
Holiday Van Erem:And then once you get all that to us, if you have samples that you can provide that show what the problem is, if you have pieces that are bowed, and you can send us a piece, if you're able to pull a piece up and show the dent or the the out of square any of that if you can send a piece because a lot of times the manufacturer is going to want a sample eventually, so they can test it. And then we have it, we can look at it ourselves. And then we can send it in for testing right away. So also know that a lot of times we have to send this material to be tested random places all over the world, wherever the testing lab is wherever the facility is. So it's not just send your photos into T&A and everything will happen in a couple of days.
Michael Goria:So, I forget what do we say timeline wise for a fully installed claim? What do we give for a resolution timeline.
Holiday Van Erem:So right now, our standard, our goal is a 30 day turnaround time. And that includes the inspection, the paperwork, working with the manufacturer, all of it takes a lot of time, our goal is 30 days. But each of these little points along that timeline can slow things down. So there's a we can go into each of those kind of small steps and give some timeline for those things. And you're just sending in photos and getting gathering all the information that should happen really quickly. Yeah, once we get the information and we can figure out what it is and who we're supposed to be sending it to. And the first thing that they're going to talk to you about in our claims department is whether or not we're sending an inspector and that's a whole mess itself. But that can take sometimes up to three to four weeks for the whole inspection process the report to come back and everything. Yeah, so it's a large chunk of time. Once we get the inspection report back, depending on what the issue is and what the determination is, and who's product it is, then we might not, we may need to send it to a manufacturer. And if we're sending product to be tested, that could take a few weeks for to be shipped someplace, tested, you have to work your way into the line of testing, it doesn't just show up, get tested come right back, that takes some time for them to do too. And testing doesn't happen fast as this is a science lab, basically, that we're sending it to. So you've got to wait for them to have the time to do the test. And some times that's a couple of days of it sitting in a chamber being tested. And there's depending on the problem there can that can take some time to
Michael Goria:Yeah, it's so interesting. As we talk about timelines and 30 days, we're also used to the return policy of let's say, a Costco or, you know, Nordstrom has always been so well known for their return policy. Those are those are instant, we don't like a product, oh, this, this radio didn't work the way I thought it would, I'm gonna take it back. That's all I have to say, on a warranty claim is just so different. It's a process that has to go through and many, not only people, but sometimes companies have to touch it, and the inspection to be set up the testing of the labs. Those all things take time. And we just have to make sure we set the expectation of how quickly will this claim be handled.
Holiday Van Erem:And I think that our claims department puts a big emphasis on setting really good expectations and asking you questions right up front about what do you want to do about the situation. And so a big part of that is whether or not you want to use an inspector. Yeah. And we'll talk about that separately in a minute, because that's a whole subject within itself. But there's a, there's a lot of going back to those steps. There's a lot of people involved in all of those different steps. And I think we've covered all of the different people involved in the situation. But it's a big circle. Yeah, it's a big circle that can go off on a tangent and then have to come back to that circle. But the the claims process, in general, is a circle of life there, it's got to go through all those different steps.
Michael Goria:It is, with the ultimate goal being to hopefully end up with a happy homeowner, a homeowner that satisfied with the product they received to the floor down, you know, that they feel really good about the product doesn't unfortunately always happen exactly, especially if the expectations aren't set when they purchase the product on the front end. But that is the goal is that the claims process starts with the homeowner with a complaint or concern. And then hopefully it comes back to them with a you know, a happy homeowner with that been resolved in some form or fashion,
Holiday Van Erem:Exactly some form or fashion is key. It may not be what their initial expectation of replacement or you know, an actual solution to what's happened. It may be we need to fix something or just give them a discount, or I mean that there's a lot of different solutions that can be provided. So a happy homeowner doesn't always mean a full installation or replacement.
Michael Goria:Yeah, and so, you know, to circle back a little bit to partially installed claims. I mean, there's times just to speak about timeline where we hope to resolve that within the day or two at the back so that we can get those installers back installing that floor and hit the timeline or deadline that they've been given that the homeowner has. So it's very different than a fully installed claim. But we're often you know, scrambling to try to find, like we've talked about different products. Maybe we go back over and look at the installation techniques, the locking system, making sure it's being done correctly, so that we can get that installer back online.
Holiday Van Erem:Yeah, there have been many times where I have sat on the phone all day long trying to find a another piece of sheet vinyl. That's the exact same, that's not the exact same run number, because that was the problem. It's a run number. And I'm having material, hopefully not shipped FedEx, because that never also turns out well, the replacement material never shows up the way it should. But you may have to wait for the truck to come on the next run. That could be a week or two. But we try to have that solution for you within a few days. And then we may have to wait a little bit longer for replacement material to show up. But we want to work with you. Yeah, we want our customers to be happy with some kind of solution. And we want that customer to be able to provide the end user some kind of solution.
Michael Goria:Yeah, we really want them to be able to go to their homeowner and feel good about hey, here's what we're doing. Here's how we're trying to resolve this so that they can I'm gonna say it a lot during this, this this podcast, but just you know, setting expectations, communication and setting expectations are so important. And we're gonna we're gonna finish on that a little bit at the end, but we just have to make sure we give good information all along the line.
Holiday Van Erem:Yeah, exactly. So next, where do claims go wrong,
Michael Goria:oh, there's so many places.
Holiday Van Erem:That's a Pandora's box,
Michael Goria:it is, I think the first place they go wrong is we don't react to them quick enough, we put them off because they're, again, they're not fun to deal with. So we push them to the back of our list. Because getting an order is way more fun than dealing with a claim.
Holiday Van Erem:Oh, for sure. Nobody wants to deal with a claim. We've already said that. Nobody wants to call and complain. Nobody wants to get a complaint. Nobody wants to go through the process. But we have to, and we have to deal with it quickly and with a positive attitude. Otherwise, it goes south very quickly. And I'll go back, and I'm gonna say it again, our claims department feels like one of the biggest problems that they're dealing with is that the flooring dealer is not taking the time to go and look at it in person. They're just passing it off to the next person. I'm not trying to throw anybody under the bus. And if flooring dealers, if that's you, and you've done that, we understand why you're doing it, I would be inclined to do the same thing, call somebody else who else can go and deal with us instead. But it makes a huge, huge difference. Because you can catch something possibly right out of the get go and nip it in the bud right there. If it's a scratch, that is not going to go through the claims process and get approved. It's just not scratches happen. And sometimes you need to make sure that the homeowners expectations are set properly, and are reset. And you help them with a solution for how to cover up that scratch and how to avoid them in the future. But that's nine out of 10 of our inspections get denied. So a lot of, a lot of things can go wrong, and a lot of things can be avoided, right from the get go.
Michael Goria:Yeah, I think the the other big one that I'm thinking about is lack of information is just not getting the correct information on the front end. I get it, it's hard to go back and collect what was the what was the humidity of the room at the time of installation? What was the sub, you know, the moisture content of the sub floor at time of installation? Those are all things we're going to ask for specifically in in wood claim.
Holiday Van Erem:But those are the most expensive. So if you're not keeping good records, and your installation crew isn't keeping good records, that can make a huge problem, right, there.
Michael Goria:It is, I used to do claims for my prior company. And when I would get a claim report that would say, you know, moisture content 8%, subfloor moisture content 8%, relative humidity 40, you know, it's like the most canned, you know, everything was perfect when they installed. I mean, there was no it was perfect. And you just kind of knew they didn't take them. They didn't take real readings at time of installation. Now there were certain companies, I mean, they would send you pictures of the meter on the floor with a date at time of installation. And it was fantastic. Because you had that information right up front. And you could rule out things. That's the other thing is with good information. We have so many people who have been in floorcovering for so long here at T&A, we can oftentimes find a solution for you literally within hours. Because they can suggest hey, do this, this will correct that and boom, you're back to installing. They can just look at pictures. They've been doing it so long and see, oh, there's pinch points on that floor. They've got to relieve the pressure, and it'll actually start to lay flat. So information, information information when we're with
Holiday Van Erem:Yeah. So that's where things can kind of claims. go wrong. What are some of the top reasons for the claims that we see? I've got a couple.
Michael Goria:You start.
Holiday Van Erem:First and foremost, they're usually site related issues.
Michael Goria:Yeah, absolutely.
Holiday Van Erem:Very rarely is the product, actually what's wrong with the situation. Which is why nine out of 10 inspections are denied. Because they're normally site related issues. So some of the ones that I was told, or that I've heard over and over and over again, are things that you just mentioned pinch points, end gap separation, islands going on top of floating floors. And unfortunately, the other trades doing things to the floor after that inspector has or not inspector installer. Has come in and laid that floor down. You have other trades coming in that put the island on top of the floating floor or scratch the heck out of it when they put all the appliances in all sorts of things can go wrong. And the installer is not there anymore to make sure that they're keeping an eye on the floor. So finding some way to try to navigate those things as the installation crew, as the flooring dealer who's hired the installation crew, there are some things that we've recommended to customers in the past putting notes out. If they see an island that they didn't know was coming in to put a note on it. It says "do not install on top of the floor", things like that just.
Michael Goria:Flooring protection.
Holiday Van Erem:Use flooring protection, yes. All those little things, suggesting it to the homeowner, hey, I know that you're having a lot of other work done have you ordered any of these things? Do you have cleaners in order? Do you have floor production on order? That's all stuff that you should include in your order from us? Yeah. So that it's the flooring isn't going to be damaged after the fact.
Michael Goria:Yeah, one thing I want to make sure we also just comment to is kind of the three types of scenarios that that If you install it, and there's no windows and doors on the home inspectors look for. So you've got you know, site related, as Holiday brought up, you've got environmental. And then manufacturer related, those are really the three main things that an inspector is going to look for, or that we're hitting on, and trying to find a solution to, you know, with building being so crazy, the last several years, there was so many, I don't wanna say corners cut, I think they were doing a good job. But people were going fast. Because the instant that home was done, it was sold. There was just no problem selling anything. With that comes mistakes. And those mistakes happen. But we can't just look and go, oh, the floor yet. Just asking for problems. didn't do well, or this floor is cheap, or there's times you get what you pay for no doubt. But ultimately, if your environment is not right, if the site has issues. You really are.
Holiday Van Erem:That's not the floors fault.
Michael Goria:Yeah, it's not and it's going to be turned down. Yeah. So again, we have to be so careful about looking to it's the flooring. Well, there's a lot that goes into what is that flooring on top of there's a sub floor, there's walls that come down, there's trim around the edges, there's islands, there's a human installed it, and even your best installer can make mistakes.
Holiday Van Erem:Yeah, and even if there wasn't a pinch point, when they installed it, the home has now moved the environment around it has changed. And it's created a pinch point. Because it maybe wasn't, you know, the gap wasn't the right size along the walls or
Michael Goria:Yeah, or that 3000 pound grand piano or pool table was put on top of it. And it's a floating floor and all of a sudden it's pinched it down.
Holiday Van Erem:Yeah, pinched it down. And now it's not doing the job it was intended to do. And it's going to have a problem. If you didn't put any blinds or window coverings on and it bubbled up. Well, it is plastic, but we recommended you put some blinds on
Michael Goria:Right, right where you should have gone with a laminate or a hardwood won't react quite like SPC, your WPC does in front of a slider.
Holiday Van Erem:Exactly. So I want to circle back around to inspections. Because that is a that can be trouble within itself. And just like the installation problems that we're having labor wise, just finding installers, good installers that know what they're doing. The same thing apparently is happening with inspectors. So I was told that there are very few inspectors just nationwide.
Michael Goria:Ya ,no, there's a shortage. There really is in all in all floorcovering. There's a shortage of inspectors.
Holiday Van Erem:Yeah, so the process that we go through, um I Yeah, yeah, there's just so few you have to travel so far, thought was interesting. I, when I sat down with our claims agent, I didn't realize that we have a national company that we utilize. So there is a national company that has inspectors nationwide, but some of them in specific areas, there's only one that covers a very large territory. And because they work with that national company, they have some higher fees than maybe the local guy that might be able to do it. So on average right now, the inspection is costing$450. And that is pretty high compared to what it used to be. In Montana right now. It's close to $700. typically. Yeah. So one thing we do, though, when we find a good one, and we that we really like and an area that we need one, we will try to build a relationship with them outside of if they happen to work for the national company, we will try to create a relationship so that maybe we can work with them on the side and not go through that national company if we have to. And sometimes we find inspectors that are outside of that network that we can utilize. So it's not always through that company. Sometimes it is and you're really at the mercy of whether or not there is somebody who can go and take a look at it, and what their schedule is, it can be several weeks, before they have time to even come out and look at the issue.
Michael Goria:Yeah, I've also found that oftentimes, inspections is not their only job. They might be a certified installer, they might have, you know, a rep position, there's just, they're not always just an inspector. And they have a schedule that they have to keep. And so yeah, it can take several weeks. And if you're in the outlying areas, sometimes even more,
Holiday Van Erem:And sometimes they're specialists in certain types of flooring.
Michael Goria:Absolutely.
Holiday Van Erem:So I know that we have certain ones that are really great at wood claims. And those are the ones we try to utilize if it's a wood claim. But that inspector might not be the expert at other types of claims.
Michael Goria:Very important. Right. And then as an often what happens is if it is a
Holiday Van Erem:So I mean, you're just kind of getting what we have access to. And one thing that we do now, because the prices are so high, and the there's limitations on who we manufacturing related issue, we'll then ask the manufacturer can get when we can get them, we ask customers, right then in there, when the claim is being filed, do you want an inspection? Here's what we think it's going to cost you. Here's what the current timelines are, do you want us to even ask to to cover that. So we would then credit, you know, the dealer and have it set up, we don't pay for the inspection, that is not something that we pay for. And a lot of times, the dealer also doesn't want to pay for that. So they asked the homeowner to pay for that. And it depends on the circumstance. Sometimes if the dealer doesn't think there's an a problem, but the homeowner is refusing to listen to them, they very well may say, Mrs. Jones, you are going to need to pay for the inspector, if that's what you want. So you're going to need to foot the $450 bill or or the homeowner. And then and then the manufacturer, when we the $700 fee. submit our, you know, claim results in credit, we would ask for that to be covered as well. Yep. Yeah. Like I said, nine out of 10 inspections are denied. Yeah. So it's not guaranteed you're gonna get that money back. So unfortunately, it means you have to decide, is this really worth it or not? Is this something that is you really truly think is a manufacturing claim, is not site related? It's not something that can be fixed right now. It's not something that we can just work on a discount or try to find some kind of solution, send some replacement material, have it fixed? Do you really want to go through that next process.
Michael Goria:Right. Because ultimately, you are then beholden to the result that they come up with. That's where they're a third party, we'd they don't work for T&A? We don't you know, they are a third party business that goes out and makes a unbiased opinion of what has gone on to cause this particular issue.
Holiday Van Erem:Yeah, and they're not always going to tell you how to fix it. No, they're only going to tell you what they see. And sometimes you can't see what the real problem is, you've got to, I've seen some really nice inspection paperwork, that particular inspector give a lot of information, took a lot of photos, found a lot of different things that could be causing the particular issue of that claim. But sometimes when it gets down to the very end of it, there could be numerous different reasons for what's happening. And that inspection report is not telling you what you need to do to fix that problem. Just telling you what we think, what they think could have happened, and then the manufacturer is going to take a look and decide whether or not they're going to approve it.
Michael Goria:Yeah. And oftentimes, it's more than one issue. There's, you know, I saw one just the other day, there was a humidity issues in the home, there was pinch points, you know, so there was two or three things causing this ultimate issue in the home. And so for an inspector, a lot of the times they are trying to go through and really come down to, well, what is causing these now part of it is then you have to go back and make those corrections to hopefully see if that's the solution. That's what will allow your floor to lay flat or whatever. The easier ones honestly are, when you know, the finish has completely fallen off a hardwood floor or there's, you know, terrible delamination it's like okay, that's a manufacturer's issue, we see that. That floor is completely out of square every no boards are going together. Those are easier for us to respond to then a lot of the times it is a bit of a mystery.
Holiday Van Erem:Let's talk about communication and expectations. I think that in my mind, it is the place where everything can be fixed. They're still sometimes you're gonna be a problem. And it's gonna go through the whole process. And it really is a claim And it's going to be approved by the manufacturer, and they're going to do what they're going to do to fix it. But a lot of the claims that we have sent to us or even before they're a real claim the inquiries about possible problems, a lot of them could be changes of expectations, and better communication that could solve the problem. So do we have any best practices that we can provide of communication and expectations?
Michael Goria:I think one of the things is if the dealer jumps on it as quickly as they can, gets us the best information that they can right out of the gate, that helps sets the course for the whole claim. And if we then communicate back, hey, received, here's, here's where we're going with this is an inspection needed or, and again, we've got a separate partial installation versus a full installation job. But if we can get that out of the way, and then get back to our dealer saying, hey, it's gonna take this amount of time, inspection set, that always has to be set with the homeowner, so they should understand, okay, nothing's going to happen until two weeks from now when that inspector comes out. But I also want to make sure they understand the inspector is not going to give you any findings or results at that time. They shouldn't. That's not their job, their job is to go out and collect as much information as possible. And then to go home and dissect it and garner results as best they can out of it. But they might have to call the installer, or they may have to call the manufacturer to get Hey, what are your parameters, look up their installation instructions, look up the warranty. So there's a lot of work outside of the home that the inspector would need to do. But let's manage that. Hey, we we will have a response back from the inspector within two weeks. Make sure you please tell your homeowner that, that way all along the way. They know a things are happening. They haven't forgot about me. I think that's one of the biggest problems with claims as people feel forgotten. It's a big deal to them, they spent an absolute ton of money for them, and for their home, and they want it to look the way they want it to look. And so we have to make sure we do our best. I know how good we would all feel if you you call your insurance company or this and, hey, I got the wrong product in the mail. And they're like, hey, we'll get you a new one right away. Here it comes zipity do-dah and you get it the next day, you feel great. You will listen to someone heard you and you got what you needed. We want to make sure we're doing the same thing.
Holiday Van Erem:Yeah. So expectation wise, I think coming from the marketing and sales side of it, we try to set product expectations right from the get go. We provide the warranty and installation for those products. What is the proper installation? What is this warranted to cover and not cover? We try to provide all of the features and the benefits about the products on our website and on our samples. We spent a lot of time making samples that really represent what the product looks like. And that's not always right out of the gate. Sometimes we screw up and we are told from the field, hey, my samples don't really look like what this really looks like. Or it seems like it's the same pattern, over and over. It's not really showing the character and the variation of color like it should, we've got to go back and change the samples and fix them and make new ones. Sometimes the product photography on the websites doesn't really match what the real floor looks like. We have to go back and fix that a lot of times, but we're doing everything that we possibly can to make sure that we're setting the right product expectation right from the get go. And it's so important that our sales reps provide that information that we're giving them and provide the right product knowledge when they sell that product to our flooring dealers. And then that the flooring dealer is empowered to know where to go to find that information, and how to properly sell that product that they've been trained properly, and that they have the right types of samples to show that product. So whole reason behind the room visualizers is to give the homeowner a better expectation of what that floor is going to look like in their home. The worst thing that you can have is that the homeowner expects no knots right of a product that is full of knots, because they didn't happen to see one on the samples. We can't always make sure that every sample has the knot gonna show up.
Michael Goria:Their sample limitations. We can't make our samples the size of a carton, and I've seen it actually recently tile is sometimes a challenge if there's high variation in tile. Room scenes are great on the back room visualizer. But when they pull that board, people like to look at the real thing and see it and we can only put sometimes two tiles or a tile and a half on on an actual, you know, sample board. Well, how do you show that drastic variation? It's hard and that's part of the industry, we're going to have those challenges. You know.
Holiday Van Erem:Well I think to that the flooring dealer when they're talking to the customer, their customer, if they're doing it right, they can usually get a pretty good idea if this customers are really picky customer. And they need to go that extra effort, maybe they need to order a carton, pull a lot of pieces out, show them what it's really going to look like. Or if they're going to be an easy going, Hey, I just like the color, I don't really, you know, I just need something to you know, fix things up. You can you know, when you're working with that person, how much a problem is going to be a problem. Is this going to turn into a huge deal, if something is a little bit off? Right, you know, ahead of time when that's gonna be and issue.
Michael Goria:If it's a special order product, go the extra mile.
Holiday Van Erem:Exactly. But it is worth the extra time in the effort to set the right expectations. To explain the limitations of product, we've talked lots about scratching, and water issues, if you're not setting the right expectation, you're going to end up in the claims process. And it's probably not going to go super well for you just based on what the issues probably are, the homeowner is just not really going to be super happy, you can hopefully avoid a lot of that. And as a distributor, we're trying to provide all of that information upfront to make that as easy as possible for you this as the flooring dealer.
Michael Goria:So as we kind of now circle back, we're kind of hitting that solutions part of this, how do we close it? How do we kind of complete the circle of claims life?
Holiday Van Erem:So sometimes the claim does not end the way that you wanted to. It's, it's denied. You've gone through the entire process. And the manufacturer says, nope, this is a site related issue. It is not the it's not the flooring, that's the problem. And then we unfortunately have to provide that to the flooring dealer to now provide to the homeowner, how do you make people happy with that answer? In my mind, the first thing is that we as a distributor can work as a partner with the dealer, the manufacturer can work as a partner with us, right? If we've all tried to have been helpful throughout the process, working together as partners, at the end, when people are not happy and it's been denied, I think we can still come up with some kind of solution that will help make it a little bit better.
Michael Goria:Yeah, I think we're great at that. I mean, I think we as a company see a lot of value in that. But we certainly want to make sure we're not being taken advantage of. And so I think we vet those, what I call opportunities, it's opportunities to team with our customers, the flooring dealer, and make sure that everybody has an understanding this claim has been denied. But we have a creative solution for you, maybe it's a ,hey, couple boards for board replacement, maybe it's a stain kit, or a touch up kit, you know, for that homeowner who's not liking certain things that are happening in the home. And then we can use that as an opportunity to also educate the homeowner, our dealer to help be creative in that scenario.
Holiday Van Erem:Yeah, and you know, we're going to provide you with the information about what the inspector had to say. And maybe we can help you figure out how to fix a pinch point, fix an issue, get you a different pad to put underneath it, if you've got the wrong thing in there. Find a way to fix a scratch, like you said, there's there's all sorts of things that we could possibly do. But we're not going to guarantee that we're going to do those things. It's one claim at a time. And a lot of it is going to be on how you worked with us throughout the claim and how much you're willing to partner with us because we're not going to foot the bill to have that floor fixed, if it's been denied, Yeah. So I think that kind of takes it all the way back around
Michael Goria:Right. And what we'll also do is we'll talk to some of our more seasoned flooring folks and try to help you Hey, yeah, this is a problem environmentally. But here's what to the beginning or back to the homeowner who hopefully can love you can do you if you get a dehumidifier in the home and bring that humidity down to the the appropriate levels, that floor will flatten out or if you get those window coverings and you make sure that that's covered on your slider, maybe you will then get that floor to lay back down. So there's there's things we'll try to recommend to help your homeowner achieve the floor that they originally purchased it so it may not be monetary that we participate with you on but it is finding a solution for the, for the homeowner. their floor. What hopefully we can fix the problem, we can help be part of the solution. We're not saying that it's going to be the answer that you thought you were gonna get, or the homeowner was hoping for, but we're hoping that we can have you as a customer again, and that they will come back because they felt like you tried to help them. You know, ultimately, it's always our goal to find resolution, it doesn't always happen. But we want to do our best to get you to that point. And claims are claims are tough. We just they're not a fun topic. We hope you listen. You know, but we we are here, we've dealt with claims for a long time, we try to make them as small as possible, but they're a part of our business.
Toni Collier:I just wanted to share what we see from the sales support perspective.
Holiday Van Erem:Yeah, go for it.
Toni Collier:We have all these inboxes where dealers email in and end users email in. So one thing that we recommend quite often, as you know, we get these end users emailing in and asking like, oh, how much variation is in this product, is this really rustic? You know, just like really specific, you know, they've seen a sample, but a sample board only shows so much, which is kind of what you're already saying. So a lot of times, we recommend to those folks who have a lot of questions about the character, just order a box or two, and bring it into your home, see it in your own light, and see all of the plank options, you know, if it's hardwood, you'll really get a good glimpse of the character. If it's not, you'll really see the pattern repeat and determine if that's right for you with the variations, right. So that's, I think, a really good recommendation at the end user. If they are one of those like really particular customers, they can figure out whether that product is going to work in their home way before it's an issue. It's a relatively low cost to order a box and just figure out if this is the right thing for them.
Michael Goria:I think that's great. I think that color looks specific in your lighting, every home is different, because your walls, your windows, where your windows are at how the sun hits your windows at different times of day. So if you're if you're particular about the color that you want to achieve, and the character the visual, it, I think a box is a great way to get that
Toni Collier:Totally. Another thing we see a lot is end users emailing in to our website, saying that they have a claim, and they need to start the claim process, which can be a tricky spot for us because they are not our customer. Our dealer is our customer. So we always have to tell them, you know, here we provide as much documentation as we can here is the installation and warranty for this product that is installed in your home. But you really have to start the claims process with the dealer, or the builder of your home, whoever purchased the flooring in your home is where you have to start this process. And that can be a hard pill for some end users to swallow. And they'll email an email. And sometimes it's it can be hard to be the customer service for those folks. But really, it does come back to like our customer is the dealer who purchased that flooring from T&A Supply Company, and we try to have their best interest in mind throughout that process.
Holiday Van Erem:That's a great point, Toni,
Michael Goria:It is and it's something you know, you and I discussed, when we were kind of prepping for this is we really need the dealer to be involved. And the important part in that is, as you said, Toni, that's our customer. And there may be times that I've seen it where the homeowner is still not happy. But our dealer is extremely pleased with the way we handled the complaint or claim. And it may not be the resolution that homeowner ultimately wanted. But our dealer sees the lengths we went to what we did the way we communicated. And so they feel good about why we had to turn that down.
Holiday Van Erem:And at the end of the day, the homeowner is not our customer, they're not. And unfortunately, if they're not happy, they're not happy. But if our dealer is on the same page with us about how it was dealt with. That's all that we need. I don't need the homeowner to be satisfied. I need our dealer to be satisfied.
Michael Goria:No, thank you, Toni. That was good.
Holiday Van Erem:One thing I want to mention too, it didn't really come up while we were discussing anything else. But one thing I had left in my notes was about homes that have been sold. And that the warranty is now voided. So just a note I used to get emails about this from our TAS Flooring website inquiries about I purchased this home. There's extra material up in the closet, so I knew who this and how to get a hold of you. And there's something wrong with the floor. It's scratched or damaged in this place. I would like assistance. And unfortunately if you're not the one who bought the floor, there's nothing I can do for you.
Michael Goria:Yeah, warranties are non transferable. Yeah, contracts. I mean, they don't they don't go from homeowners to homeowner.
Holiday Van Erem:Yeah, you can't leave the warranty behind with an extra box for the for the next owner. You can doesn't mean anything.
Michael Goria:Yeah, and I get it those things are frustrating as consumers, I mean, we all deal with that. So whether it's in flooring or completely different products, we all want to be happy with the purchase or what we get. But if there's just we are not able to facilitate those complaints.
Holiday Van Erem:What we can't do is tell you whether or not we still sell that product and who you can go to and talk to, depending on where you're located. We might know who installed your floor, if, depending on how many stores are in your area, and we can send you back to that store and have them talk to you about it. And they might be able to solve your problem for you help you replace a plank or do whatever you need to or help you figure out how to clean your floors. If you don't know how to clean that type of floor.
Michael Goria:Fresh floors.
Holiday Van Erem:Exactly. solves it all. All right. well, I think that we have solved all of the claims in the world.
Michael Goria:Yeah, I think from now on claim should go very smooth. Oh, very easy.
Holiday Van Erem:But don't send them to us.
Michael Goria:We are not in the claims department.
Holiday Van Erem:Did we mentioned that we're not in the claims department?
Michael Goria:But kudos to our claims department. It's a tough job. And they they do such a good job. It's thankless, right? And it's just not fun. They don't ever get the sale. They just have to deal with the unhappy folks. And so they have a very tough job and they do a really good job for us.
Holiday Van Erem:They are part of our customer service team. And like you said, thankless? So the next time we see one of our claims agents, give them a little thank you. Hi, yes, sales reps, our sales reps, make sure that you tell those folks. Thank you for dealing with this. Now it's time for walk the plank. Michael, this thing, it's all about you, buddy.
Michael Goria:Well, it's a big portion. Yeah.
Holiday Van Erem:So this is the segment where we debate a ridiculous pet peeve of Michael's, and other flooring industry professionals. And I want to know, I don't have the personal opinion about our topic today. But I know you do.
Michael Goria:I do.
Holiday Van Erem:Jose, what is our what is our topic today?
Jose Morales:Jenko ratings.
Michael Goria:Janka ratings. Yeah. So I tried to take a
Holiday Van Erem:Don, don, don. different approach to this and see all sides and Janka ratings just for those of you who don't know, mainly for hardwood, and they are when you embed a quarter inch steel ball like a bearing into the hardwood, and it was it was brought about when solid was the major hardwood and so they would see the pounds of pressure to embed that ball down. And you're like dropping the ball from a certain distance.
Michael Goria:No you're using a you're using like a pressure like oh pounds of pressure to see how much it takes to actually get into the hardwood to go a quarter inch into.
Jose Morales:Like a hydraulic press?
Michael Goria:Correct. Thank you. Yeah, it's awesome. So the standard is red oak, and red oak is 1290 on the Janka hardness scale. Okay, so that's great. Red Oak is been used forever in hardwood flooring, it's the most commonly used hardwood floor, tons of it grows in North America, also in Europe. And it's kind of the main standard oak that we use. However, lots of white oak is also used. That's the standard. Now there's species that are far above that. And there are species that are even below that even in the hardwood category. And then there are soft woods. So if you think of balsa wood, if you ever put together a balsa wood, airplane or something like that. You got you somehow got into stereo. They break like after four throws.
Toni Collier:Yeah, okay. You said get um, like going my dad when like, my dad would go through the bank, drive thru, they'd give them to them. And it was so cool, because they'd like shoot it up.
Holiday Van Erem:Oh, they went through the the tube tube.
Michael Goria:And they break while they went through.
Toni Collier:Basically. Yeah.
Michael Goria:So balsa wood is 100 on the so yeah, I mean, it's very soft. It's used for carving some furniture, if it's not being seen, because it's lightweight. But that's kind of the standard and then you can go up Brazilian cherry is, you know, 2350 I think it's way up there. But that just measures the hardness of the actual wood, that particular hardwood. So why I get a little disenchanted with it is it's just one rating that So you're the Janka test, is it mostly was done on solid? Is shows the hardness. But that doesn't mean that it doesn't scratch. Still, it will still scratch all flooring, especially when you put a finish on it that it won't dent that your floor will still dent. And so why I like AC ratings so much is there a combination of tests that are done. Janka hardness is just one test. And it doesn't really take into account the finish that's on top. So we use a lot of aluminum oxide finishes these days, they're very hard. There's usually a aluminum oxide layer and like the fifth or seventh layers, sometimes the third and fifth layer depending on the product. Those give it that finish hardness. So that's different. You can do a Taber abrasion test which is similar to what they do for the AC rating, which is revolutions of the sandpaper over your floor. That's a very good test to show what it would take if you know a roller was to go on a chair for many, many times. So we can't just people think oh, harder is better. And it's just not true. And I think that's where this particular if you look up things with hardwood, it's all the Janka test. Well, that's good, except that it's just one small glimpse of what we need to really think about with our floor. Is hardwood even the right product for you? Do you have three massive dogs? Even if you have a red oak floor or a Brazilian cherry floor, that floor will still scratch it will still dip now, perhaps less than, you know like a walnut floor walnut is beautiful, but it's very susceptible to denting. And so you just have to be aware I just you know, I guess we did this because we wanted to bring light to Janka test only really gives you a small glimpse, we need to make sure we're looking at several other factors involved in picking that particular. that what the actual testing numbers were documented? So it's not they haven't redone them on an engineered platform? Thank you. So that's the other aspect of this is it's irrelevant to engineered.
Holiday Van Erem:Which is 95%. Maybe not, it's we haven't sold solid hardwood in a very long time. And there's a real big reason for that.
Michael Goria:Absolutely. So it's not relevant to engineered because an engineered core is typically a softwood, whether it's sometimes it's birch, which is a hardwood as well. But a lot of times it's eucalyptus, because it's fast growing, sometimes it's fur or pine, those are both fast growing soft woods as well. So if that ball, that steel ball is going to go through it, there's maybe let's call it a two millimeter face. Well, you can't even go a quarter inch into a two millimeter face because two millimeters does not equal a quarter inch. So that's where again, that testing doesn't really give you the overall look. Now we have the HDF cores that hardwoods on or rain tree with the SPC core, well, you're not going to get a steel ball through the SPC core. So that's why that 1.2 veneer on top doesn't need to be super thick, because you've got that really hard SPC core on Raintree. So the Janka test on that is really irrelevant as well. So.
Holiday Van Erem:Uh huh, and the Janka test doesn't incorporate any kind of finish that was put on the solid hardwood.
Michael Goria:It doesn't, it's just it is strictly just the density of the wood.
Holiday Van Erem:That is so crazy, because I never really thought too much about it. And, and I really did not think about the fact that it doesn't, it doesn't associate it's not associated at all with any of the wood that we're selling, because it's everything we sell is engineered,
Michael Goria:Right, it doesn't account for dimensional stability, the actual wear layer of the finish, which is not talked about in mills or anything. So it's it's it, it leaves itself irrelevant it is and it just leaves itself short. So you've got to think about so much more that the floors construction, overall engineering versus solid, like we talked about how much traffic is going to be in the home, where's this flooring going? You just have to look at the bigger
Toni Collier:I think one of the good things, obviously, it's not picture. a good measurement. But one nice thing when a Janka or similar rating is applied to a product is it's really easy to compare. This product has this rating, this product has this rating. So if someone is looking at hardwood, what is a better stat to look at, to compare the options.
Michael Goria:So in solid, it should be more relevant because you can compare hickory. I'm trying to remember what hickory hickory is at 1820. And like I said red oak is at 1290. So hickory is a harder woods. So if you have large dogs and you still want solid floor great, hickory may perform better overall, they all scratch I just like to always say that. But an engineered, what I would maybe look at more is the what's the engineered core made out of? Where's it going, you know, what are you trying to achieve with that floor? You just can't go on one alone, I guess I would look at a veneer thickness if you want to sand it because you know you can get more you know, a three millimeter product you can sand you know, they say at least twice, a 1.2 millimeter product, you can sand you can do a screen and recoat but you can not sand at all. So we've got to look at more facets of what are you trying to achieve? Where is this product going? What's the ultimate goal for it versus just it's hard so it's better?
Holiday Van Erem:Michael, how many people realistically sand and refinish their hardwood floors?
Michael Goria:I would say less than 10% might be less than 5%. Yeah. And in fact, and NWFA is looking at this now with aluminum oxide, it's very hard to sand. It gums up the sandpaper, the wheels, it's just it's a nightmare to sand and so they're actually even taking that into an account with not only the thickness of the veneer but then does it have an aluminum oxide finish on it because you got to sand almost more to really get through that but it happens so seldomly. Unfortunately we live in a world where we just find a new product and replace it.
Holiday Van Erem:It's just it's interesting how as we've developed all sorts of new technologies to build flooring, the gold standard it's is still a hardwood floor. We don't really have any good up to date, to Toni's point, like rating system or you know, kind of like scale of performance for hardwood. It's all based on older concepts of what wood flooring is.
Michael Goria:Yeah, I mean the newest iterations are the enhanced HDF cores that are just so much harder. So your impact and dent resistance is far greater. Or your products like a Raintree that are an SPC core course you get the dent resistance you get a waterproof or water resistant story similar to a higher end laminate those are the newest technology changes iterations in in hardwood, but you'd be surprised so many people still go with traditional solid even or just a nice looking engineered because they want no pattern repeats they want that real look and feel it enhances the overall home. That's why hardwood I think although the market share has has leveled out or even gone down over the years I don't think it'll ever go away because ultimately people that is a higher end floorcovering
Holiday Van Erem:Sounds like Janka ratings kind of suck.
Jose Morales:You heard it here first folks Janka is janky, get it out of here.
Michael Goria:Thank you Jose, I agree I think it's it's some it should be such a small part of the conversation and hardwood almost irrelevant I continue to say this as we do these podcasts. This is probably the third or fourth time I would love to see us come up with a more holistic rating.
Holiday Van Erem:Cross category rating.
Michael Goria:Like the AC I think you could potentially do AC ratings on other products and have some correlation that could really help you make your decisions.
Holiday Van Erem:Well hopefully the Janka family doesn't come after us for ruining their reputation.
Michael Goria:One opinion one opinion.
Holiday Van Erem:One person's opinion here. I don't know if there is a Mr. Janka.
Michael Goria:I don't know either but thank you for letting me air the Janka laundry, possibly.
Holiday Van Erem:If you are Mr. Janka and you want to complain, WTFpodcast@tasupply.com.
Michael Goria:That's it. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, have a conversation
Holiday Van Erem:Fight it out. Never know, never know. All right. Well, Michael, this has been a, I think this is a good ending to a very what could be considered a not super funny subject.
Michael Goria:Yeah, yeah, I think that it's nice to yuk it up a little bit at the end with you know, a little lighter because claims are hard. They just are.
Holiday Van Erem:They are but we at T&A Supply, try to do the best we can. Hopefully the claims processing isn't a total mess for you.
Michael Goria:Yeah, we hope that when you deal with us on a claim you go hey, this isn't fun, but these guys process them or they help us get through this as quickly and as painless as possible.
Holiday Van Erem:What the Floor is a T&A Supply Company Inc original production. You can find out more about us at T A supply.com. Or T A S Flooring.com.
Michael Goria:This show is produced by Jose Morales with help from Tony Collier and Jessica Riser. Hosted by Holiday Van Erem and Michael Goria.
Holiday Van Erem:Tell us what you think of the show, like I said, WTF podcast at ta supply.com or on social media, you can use the hashtag what the floor podcast.
Michael Goria:Thanks for the support.
Holiday Van Erem:Yeah, what the floor, WTF!