On this episode of the What the Floor Podcast, Michael and Holiday brought in a friend of the show and colleague, Jim Partridge, to help us novices understand what subfloor prep is, why it is important, and what is involved in the process of preparing a subfloor.
We also brought back Fire in the Hole for this episode so Jim could remind us all about the ceramic tile installation supplies that our T&A Supply branches have in stock.
What the Floor is a T&A Supply Company Inc original production. You can find out more about us at tasupply.com or tasflooring.com. This show is produced by Jose Morales with help from Toni Collier and Jessica Riser. Tell us what you think of the show at wtfpodcast@tasupply.com or #whatthefloorpodcast on social media to let us know what you think.
On this episode of the What the Floor Podcast, Michael and Holiday brought in a friend of the show and colleague, Jim Partridge, to help us novices understand what subfloor prep is, why it is important, and what is involved in the process of preparing a subfloor.
We also brought back Fire in the Hole for this episode so Jim could remind us all about the ceramic tile installation supplies that our T&A Supply branches have in stock.
What the Floor is a T&A Supply Company Inc original production. You can find out more about us at tasupply.com or tasflooring.com. This show is produced by Jose Morales with help from Toni Collier and Jessica Riser. Tell us what you think of the show at wtfpodcast@tasupply.com or #whatthefloorpodcast on social media to let us know what you think.
This is What The Floor from T&A Supply Company Inc, a podcast for the flooring industry. I'm Holiday Van Erem.
Michael Goria:And I'm Michael Goria. We're going to explore the hot topics of the flooring industry with a little humor and a new set of eyes. Good afternoon Holiday, how are you?
Holiday Van Erem:Hi, Michael. I'm pretty good.
Michael Goria:Anything new this week.
Holiday Van Erem:It's a beautiful day outside. The sun is starting to come out. Tony is here with us, too. We're finally getting unburied from meetings and millions of emails. So we're feeling like we're accomplishing things, the last few days.
Michael Goria:Progress is happening.
Toni Collier:Yeah, I feel like I've gotten two weeks worth of work done in the last three days by not having meetings. It's glorious.
Michael Goria:Good. Well, we've got an exciting new podcast today. We've got one of our own going over a new topic.
Holiday Van Erem:This is a topic requested by a listener. One of the handful of things that we've received that we put on the list of stuff we want to get to and we finally found the right person to talk to us about it.
Michael Goria:We did and he was willing to come and chat with us. So welcome, Jim.
Jim Partridge:Thank you.
Michael Goria:Yes
Jim Partridge:Happy to be here.
Holiday Van Erem:So Jim Partridge of T&A Supply. Can you introduce yourself to us, give us a little background history of who Jim Partridge is.
Jim Partridge:Jim Partridge is a T&A supply employee. But I've got about 30 years in the business. Now, I actually started the day after I graduated high school working for a floorcovering supply distributor. That location is now a T&A supply location but it wasn't at the time, it was called G&M wholesale. From there, I kind of progressed into installation. Installed for some years and then went to work in manufacturing where one of my positions was selling substrate prep.
Holiday Van Erem:He's got a lot of knowledge I can tell already.
Michael Goria:Yeah, I feel good about this.
Holiday Van Erem:And the one thing though, that I do love is that Jim can't get away from T&A Supply. Which is the story of many of us. You have some kind of like weird connection to the company, you leave you come back, you just like you just can't get away from us. So we're happy to have you back.
Jim Partridge:Thank you. I'm glad to be back and I want to be here at T&A Supply. I started off in the sundry business or installation supplies. It's kind of been my passion my whole life. And I'm excited to be a part of it here at T&A.
Michael Goria:So we really want to tackle the subfloor prep and self-leveling topic today. That's kind of where we want to go. Hopefully that resonates with people from my own experience. It's one of those things where people say self-leveler, and I go, what does that mean? So, we need a professional to help us walk through subfloor prep and self-leveler 101.
Jim Partridge:Well, I'm happy to do that. Certainly self-leveling wasn't my passion when I started installing. But as the industry has grown and changed, we see a lot more hardwood installed, we see a lot more large format tile. And so the floors are being requested that they be flat and smooth, really that has created an industry that we didn't used to talk about. It used to be somewhat swept under the rug by the general contractor or the building owner. And now it's being required and we see the difference in the finished product that we have out there. And it's become a very important part of what we do.
Holiday Van Erem:So you mentioned some standards there. Is there specific standards that every installation the subfloor has to meet to be code or get the warranty that is required on the flooring? The subfloor is in its own, a project and then you're installing over the top of it. So what is the standard for what that subfloor needs to be like before you put the floor down?
Jim Partridge:we see a lot of different standards and different types of floor coverings. When I first started in the industry, we really had cheap vinyl glue down carpet or broadloom carpet And now we have large format tile, hardwood being more specified we have LVT, LVP laminate and those require certain standards. And so the probably the most common standard is for hardwood, which is 1/8" and 10. Just an eighth of an inch difference in height or depth I guess. An eighth of an inch change within a 10 foot period. So if we go if I have a 10 foot straight edge, and there's an eighth of an inch difference in any part of that straight edge, that would be within spec but if it's over that, it would be out of spec.
Michael Goria:And that's what would then cause, potential issues. Is being out of that spec, right?
Jim Partridge:We did a project The Portland International Airport and they had a 10 foot straight edge and they had a pencil that was three eighths of an inch thick and at any time if that pencil could go below that straight edge. They were required to pour self-leveling and put the floor back in spec, so it ended up being a nice job. It was a lot of pencils going under a lot of straight edges. Some of them might have been shaved down by me, but it was all legit. And so most slabs don't necessarily meet that or they have a challenge meeting that. We've also seen in the last 20 years, the concrete industry is faster and faster. So what they do is they're able to put a building up much quicker. We don't allow for the slab to cure completely before we see floorcovering. So when we see moisture issues and things like that, which is another part I'm sure we'll discuss. But we also see, not necessarily the workmanship, but the speed that it's going, you know, slabs can curl, they change, I've always been told that concrete is a living breathing thing, and then it will change with with the environment or as it cures as that moisture comes out of it. And so generally what we see is the, whatever is specified for floor covering, the substrate will need to meet that floor flatness and moisture content smoothness.
Holiday Van Erem:I think I have a better understanding what we're what we're talking about.
Michael Goria:We're getting somewhere now. So, it is necessary for both commercial and residential?
Jim Partridge:Absolutely. So right now we see a lot of LVP, I mean, it's the most popular type of floorcovering that we see. We also see a lot of laminate. You know, in a typical home, that floor is gonna be flat enough, but we may have seen some remodeling or some flooring that's been tore out. And so if we have an uneven floor, if it's a click to another floor, it can actually affect the mechanism that's there, we can see some failures with separation, we can see some unevenness, where we have movement in the floor, because there's an air pocket there, we see mostly substrate prep specified in a commercial application, but it's still going to be needed, you know, in the residential application. And then of course, commercial does meet residential, I've done a lot of high rise condominium projects with leveling. And of course, that would be a residential situation, but really in a commercial project.
Michael Goria:Right, just to stick with the residential for a minute Who is responsible for floor flatness?
Jim Partridge:Well, that's where the fingers start getting pointed all over the place. And so it's become more accepted, we see the need we we've seen the failures of what happens when we don't have a smooth flat floor. And so really, it's the depending on the project. So in a residential situation, it's going to be something that the installer needs to notify the homeowner, or the owner of the building, that they have an issue or it's not meeting the specification of what the floor covering is, and that they need to do something about it. And of course, they'll give them a price on that or what needs to be done.
Holiday Van Erem:In theory, the installer should be the one, that at least starting the conversation. When they go to do the installation, seeing or testing and finding that the floor is not going to meet that flatness.
Jim Partridge:It could be something that is drawn up by the salesperson who's selling the floor covering, if they see that. We just don't see that expertise always in the residential side, where we do in the commercial side. So again 10, 15, 20 years ago, the commercial contractor really didn't want to get involved with the floor prep, they just wanted that to be involved in their original bid. However, they're seeing, as times change, that those things need to meet that specification. And so they're getting in front of it so that the installation contractor either knows what his scope of work will be, or it's being taken care of beforehand.
Michael Goria:Let's just scenario here, a homeowner goes into one of our customers a residential flooring store, and you know, they're picking out products and they've settled on the one they want. And you know, our customer will gladly sell it to them and they don't, they've never seen the home. They've never seen the subfloor, how would they know? Or would they ever know to talk to them about subfloor prep?
Jim Partridge:Well, subfloor prep, it covers a lot of different things. It could be just some patching, you know, some patching or some ramping, things like that. And those are things that an installer is going to know that he may or may not have to take care of when he gets to the project, the homeowner or the salesperson is generally not going to realize that their floor is out of spec. In most cases, when we have a wood substrate, they're not out of spec, okay, unless there's been some settling of the home or there's been some other type of issue where they've remodeled added onto the home or they've got multiple floor coverings. And so those things can be taken care of on site by the installer, the homeowner is not going to know because generally there's floor covering already there. And they may have not taken that up to see what's going on underneath.
Michael Goria:So you use two buzzwords, patching and ramping.
Holiday Van Erem:Yeah, so my next question was going to be what are the different types of prep that you're going to run across, so.
Jim Partridge:So patching is something that of course, we've been doing forever, where we take either a gypsum based or cement based compound and we we mix it with water and we create a patching compound very similar to what we would do on drywall. It's just made something different. So we're just we're out to smooth the substrate so that the floor covering can go down, ramping is where we try to make a difference in elevation, not as noticeable.
Michael Goria:Okay.
Jim Partridge:And so we're going to take that half inch, there's actually an ADA specification of what it can be, and that's how many inches or quarter of an inch or 16th of an inch per foot rise over that disk. So say we've got a half an inch rise, we want to take that out, you know, four feet so that the the person doesn't notice it. And then also, that doesn't cause any issue with the finished floor covering.
Holiday Van Erem:Okay, so patching and ramping, I have a question about patching. When is it too much patching? Or you should be doing something different? Is there a hole that's too big to be patched? When do you know that patching is not the fix here?
Jim Partridge:First of all, if it's a large area, you know, we're gonna want to do something different. The other is, a lot of times Believe it or not, it's the comfort level of the person doing the work. So when I first started with the manufacturer that I worked for that is now at T&A Supply, we would have people that would patch large areas where we could also show them how to self-level that those areas much faster, much easier, and maybe not have to do as many coats. So going back to drywall for some reason, people are much more familiar with drywall patching than they are with floor patching, where you have to do multiple coats in order to get the final product that you would like. And so, installers in some cases will do multiple coats of patching even over large areas to get that area smooth enough for what they want their finished floor covering to be where they could also use self-leveling, but it really depends on the comfort level of the person doing the work. And so I think there's been really a push to do more self-leveling, because it can be done with one pass, they get better results. And ultimately, it is easier. But again, if somebody is not familiar with that, they generally stray away from that.
Michael Goria:So when we talk self leveling, we're doing an entire area.
Jim Partridge:Correct.
Michael Goria:Over just patching, which is kind of spot, you know, filling little areas that need some sort of rise or?
Jim Partridge:Generally a patching is done, you know, where it might be just, you know, in a residential situation where they have a wood substrate, they may just be patching the joints, okay, or they may be patching some imperfections in the floor, or they could be filling a small area, say if I had a hole in the floor of a concrete that was a quarter of an inch deep, but it was over three or four foot area. I may not patch that, because it's it's a lot. And so it's gonna be a lot of product. And so there are other ways to do that. But, again, it goes to the comfort level, and what the scope of the job is, you know, if it's a residential area, we don't see as much self-leveling in residential areas as we do, patching.
Holiday Van Erem:Okay. Okay, here's my next question, what is self-leveling?
Jim Partridge:Great. So it's actually not a very good description of the product, because in a lot of cases, self-leveling, underlayments traditionally have not been what we would call self-leveling, meaning, if I mix a product, and it's fluid, and I pour it out, that would mean I wouldn't have to move it or touch it or do anything with it, which would call it self-leveling. In a lot of those products, we actually have to manipulate it over the area that we're working with and get it to the right thickness in the right area, we have to move it around and do some things to where it gets to the point where we get the finished product that we would want. Some products are more fluid than others, depending on the manufacturer of the product or the formulation of the product. And so ultimately, what we would like when we buy that is to pour something out, let it seek its own level like a glass of water, and then be able to have that harden and be smooth and ready for floorcovering. And so a lot of trainings are done, you know to teach people how to manipulate these products and get the desired result that they would like to have. But self-leveling underlayment is really a product that generally is used on concrete, we do see it used on wood occasionally, in order to prepare floor for finished floor covering over a larger area.
Michael Goria:Are there certain products that are more susceptible to need self-leveling versus others? Is it thickness that determines that for instance, a thin LVP? Let's say it's a 4.5 overall thickness versus a three quarter inch solid hardwood? You know, do they have different standards is the will that LVP need more self-leveling versus the three quarter inch solid hardwood? Or they all kind of need to be within the same realm?
Jim Partridge:Yeah, it really depends on what the specification is. So a lot of times we see LVP will somewhat conform to the undulation of the floor more than than a hardwood wood. So the other thing we see is that I guess customers are becoming more in tune with what the floor prep will give them for their finished product. I was on a project it was many years ago when I first started with the manufacturer where one hallway had been patched prior to sheet vinyl and the other hallway. They had started using some self-leveling. And as I stood at the nurse's station along with the contractor, we could look down one hallway and see some undulation in the floor. And as you look down the hallway that had used self-leveling, it was perfectly flat. It was very, very smooth. And so what it comes down to is generally patching compound is put down with a with a trowel that that's maybe you know 12 to 14 inches long or self-leveling. There's no trial marks and so it's going to be finished. So depending on how you know as you said how thick the floor is, so sometimes the thinner The floor, the more we see that undulation, or what is done underneath, or hardwood, we really just want to have a flat floor. But we want to have a smooth floor when it comes to a thin material. So we used to do a lot of Target stores when I installed and we would be walking down one of the aisles and we it looked like there was literally a boulder underneath one of the tiles. And so we would pull that tile up in a lot of cases, we couldn't even find the tiny little pebble that was under there. But it looked like somebody left a watch under there. And so very minor imperfections in a floor, depending on the floor can really make a big impact on what the look of the floor is. And so there's a lot of different aspects to substrate prep, you know whether the floor needs to be flat, the floor needs to be smooth. In some cases, the floor actually does need to be level, we've done some TV stations, MRI rooms, where they wanted what we would call perfectly level floors, so that the equipment the camera equipment could roll around, or maybe it's the MRI equipment could roll around things like that. And so they had to be, you know, they had to meet that specification.
Holiday Van Erem:What are the best practices for somebody who is using self-leveling? Are there certain things that are you've just you have to do this? You have to use this? Are there certain things that this is the best practice, and maybe where you see people trying to cut corners, and they're really kind of missing the mark on it?
Jim Partridge:Well, one of the things we used to always tell contractors, when we would do trainings was you know, follow the instructions on the bag.
Holiday Van Erem:Oh, really?
Jim Partridge:Yeah, it's one of those simple ones that a lot of times gets overlooked. These products have about 18 ingredients in them. And they're very, very finite. Some of them, some of them in a 3000 pound batch are put in by ounces. And so it's very critical that you use the right amount of water and follow the manufacturer's instructions. The other is I used to get the question all the time, do I need to use primer with self-leveling? And the answer was always yes. And it didn't even matter what they were using. Because it was a very important part of that installation, and that they follow those instructions. The other is to look at the area that they're doing and not bite off too much of an area. You know, self-leveling underlayment is a product that doesn't have a lot of what we call open time, meaning it's, it doesn't flow or self-level for for a long period of time, it's important that they only bite off what they can chew in a period of time, I've had customers that would call me and and tell me that they went to lunch and they came back. And they really couldn't do anything with the product. And I said, How long were you gone at lunch? At least an hour, I said, well, it only has 15 minutes, you can work with it. So I'm not surprised that that didn't work out. And so, you know, each product is gonna have its individual challenges. But a lot of times, if we follow the instructions on that, we can really eliminate that. And that's me included, you know, I installed for 15 years, you know, I can remember a time where I would do a laminate floor and we would have some challenges. And then about halfway through, we would sit down and read the instructions and the rest of that project went very, very well. And so if I can give anybody any advice on that it would be to the follow the instructions from the manufacturer.
Holiday Van Erem:What happens if they don't? Are there things that they can do to go back in time and fix the situation? or they just need to put another level over the top of what they've done?
Jim Partridge:So if they don't follow the instructions? It certainly that's a that's a wide open question. So it would depend on which instructions when I when I say that, you know, all of these products need primer prior to using a self-leveling product, I've actually, you know, there's been customers that put the self-leveling in the product rather than prime the floor prior. And so that's a challenge that we can't get past. But in most cases, if they do the primer, and they follow the instructions there, and they've just had some challenges during the installation, they can, you know, put on another layer or they can go back and maybe take a little bit of that area up. And there's always gonna be environmental factors, you know, so you know, sunlight coming in a window, or maybe it was a hot day or they didn't have water on site, we actually had a project in Hawaii where I think they were on the 25th floor. And they were pumping our self-leveling underlayment and the plumber shut the water off for a period of two hours. And so if you can imagine the self-leveling underlayment, that was in all of the hoses that they were using to pump the product, it was in the in the actual pump and then of course it was on the floor. And so I was instructed to airfreight some new hoses as quickly as possible to Hawaii the next day because everything was ruined. Right. And so, you know, those are challenges there. Environmental factors are issues that are on a job that aren't necessarily I guess attributed to the installer or following those instructions. And so there are ways to repair a job there just as with anything, they're not always going to be the most convenient.
Michael Goria:Jim might have to be on Episode 2 or the second part of the horror stories.
Holiday Van Erem:Horror stories, yes, October 2023.
Jim Partridge:I have a pretty good list.
Holiday Van Erem:It's all Jim. Okay, so if I'm the guy who went to lunch, I mean, I'm screwed, right that. And I've just got to figure out how to what's the least expensive way to solve this problem.
Jim Partridge:Right, because what's going to happen is, you know, the products are made to the flow for anywhere from 20 minutes to maybe 45 minutes. And so after that, they start to gel. And then after that, they get hard, you know, like cement, and so that we can put floor coverings over them. And so generally, what has happened is, it's still going to be in that green stage. And so they'll either need to wait until it cures or just start tearing it up at that point. But there are ways that they can, you know, adjust to that. But I think the moral of that story would be that it's best to learn as much as you can, you know, attend the clinics that many of these manufacturers put on, read the instructions, and try to be as prepared as you as you possibly can. Self-leveling has always been somewhat intimidating, because it's something new. But most of the people that I've had interaction with once they learned how to do it, they tend to do it on a daily basis, they just absolutely love using the product, because it makes their job so much easier.
Michael Goria:So once they get comfortable with it, they can get it down, and then they know their installation will go smoother and easier. Right?
Jim Partridge:Exactly. It's smoother being the key word. That's the word. So you know, a lot of times when we patch and we put multiple coats of patching compound on a substrate getting it ready for finish floorcovering, we have to sand it in between and there's a process of cleaning it up and vacuuming and things like that, where self-leveling, we can pour it once it cures, it's very smooth, generally don't have to sand it, and we're ready for finish floorcovering. And so it makes that job just that much easier.
Michael Goria:What part does moisture play? So let's say you're going over concrete, and you have a wet pad still? How long do you have to wait? What does it need to be at before you put self-leveler down.
Jim Partridge:So now we'll get into a little more technical, you know, moisture has really become you know, I can remember when I first started installing moisture wasn't really an issue. And I think for the most part it was because we had floorcovering that wasn't as moisture sensitive, we had broadloom carpet like we discussed before, and where that product could breathe, that moisture could come out of it. We were using solvent based adhesives and so that we have water soluble adhesives. So when we have moisture, it's problem. Really, I think most manufacturers in self-leveling cement patching compounds refer to what the finished floor covering is going to be. There are products that will allow for high moisture, we carry some of those products at T&A Supply, quick plug. And so you know, those products can handle high moisture, we just need to make sure that the adhesive that's going to be used can handle high moisture, and that the finished floor covering can handle high moisture. So obviously you don't want the floor to be wet, we really want the floor to or the substrate to meet the criteria that the finish floor covering is gonna meet. And of course, that's a wide, wide wide range. So if we think there's, you know, too much moisture, we certainly want to test and we want to make sure that it meets all the standards of the adhesive floorcovering. And if it will meet those, it will most likely meet the self-leveling or patching compound.
Holiday Van Erem:This might be a dumb question, but I hear you saying high moisture products. But what is the difference between high moisture and too much water?
Jim Partridge:High moisture never means water.
Holiday Van Erem:Okay.
Jim Partridge:If we have water, then there's definitely going to be a problem. Okay, I always say, you know, moisture in concrete is a lot like somebody who lives in Seattle, when the sun comes out. So do we, we just kind of go out. And so that's kind of what happens with moisture, when the building gets warm, the moisture vapor, that actual water, moisture vapor kind of travels and says I want to be warm to and it comes up through the concrete and it stabilizes. And so those things can affect our floorcovering they can affect the adhesive. And so high moisture is measured by a couple different things. It's measured by a calcium chloride test, which measures the weight of the moisture, or the relative humidity, which is basically the you know, the atmosphere that's out in the concrete. So at any time, if those meet a certain levels, then we would consider that high moisture.
Holiday Van Erem:Okay, I feel more comfortable about it.
Jim Partridge:That one is a complicated one. And, you know, at one time I had to read a book on Portland cement, and I would recommend it it's not the most interesting book I've ever read. It is very interesting, you know, we in the floorcovering industry, you know, we we just you know, we always look down when we walk and so concrete is very interesting. It's a living breathing thing. And it changes over time and we see so many different things a lot of times I feel like I'm a little investigator, you know, trying to trying to see what's what's going on with with a floor and it's, it's kind of fun, you know, but in a lot of times we see moisture is an issue and when you haven't seen that before you know it 20 years ago, we didn't worry about it. And now we worry about it on every project.
Holiday Van Erem:So we did not talk about this buzzword that he used a few times. And so I want to circle back to it. What is primer? How does it use? When do you use it? Why are you using it?
Jim Partridge:With patching compounds, we don't use primer so much. It's got a product, it's generally polymer modified. So if we're, if we're just patching substrate, we're not going to use a primer. But whenever we're using a self-leveling underlayment, primer is a generally it's a polymer modified liquid that is designed to kind of prepare the floor. So in a lot of cases, concrete is very porous. And so we want to use a bonding agent. And that primer is a bonding agent for the self-leveling underlayment in early days, they use what we call the SSD surface saturation drives. So the primer was actually water. So they would just spray down the concrete with water so that it didn't dry so quickly, and and cause an issue for the for the cement. So when cement cures too fast, it becomes weaker. And so we want it to cure at a certain rate. And the primer keeps it from curing too fast. And also is a bonding agent for the self-leveling underlayment to stick to the floor.
Michael Goria:So the primers going in between the concrete and the self-leveler, you're using that to marry the two.
Jim Partridge:Absolutely.
Michael Goria:yup okay
Jim Partridge:So if they mix them.
Michael Goria:Right now it's spread throughout.
Holiday Van Erem:You thought you're being clever.
Michael Goria:Those brownies don't taste good.
Holiday Van Erem:You should always use a primer. Is that what I'm hearing?
Jim Partridge:Always.
Michael Goria:Does anything need to go once you've self-leveled? Does anything need to go on top of that, before you start installing your floor?
Jim Partridge:In most cases, no. So if they're going to add another layer of self-leveling, we would have them prime that Sure. Otherwise, no, it should be ready for for finished floorcovering.
Michael Goria:Okay.
Jim Partridge:There are some cases where gypsum self-leveling, they will if you have a gypsum, I guess not a polymer modified product. But let's say you know, a lot of low rise condominium projects will utilize what we call Gypcrete or gypsum underlayment, those particular products are not necessarily the same as what we sell at T&A Supply. Those products do end up being very porous, and we want to use some type of product over those to really keep that porosity before we put down finish floorcovering or any other type of product because they, when they dry, they're very, very porous.
Michael Goria:What is the difference between Gypcrete and concrete.
Jim Partridge:So Gypcrete is made out of gypsum. And then of course, it's got additives. So they call it I think, in some cases, they'll call it gypsum concrete, but it's really, gypsum underlayment generally poured anywhere from three quarters of an inch to inch and a quarter over a wood substrate. And it's used as a really a fire retardant as well, so that you, you don't have a five storey building, that's just plywood, you've got all of this three quarter to an inch and a quarter of a gypsum product. And it's not in any way. Cement. So it's, they call it gypsum cement, but it's, it acts the same way. You mix it with water, it hardens, but it's not made out of concrete or Portland cement products.
Michael Goria:Can you do self-leveling on? Gypcrete?
Jim Partridge:Absolutely.
Michael Goria:Okay.
Holiday Van Erem:So yes. There's nothing else to say, Michael?
Michael Goria:I know, for me, just being fully candid. You know, a long time ago, I used to well, what's the difference between Gypcrete and concrete and you hear those, they just get thrown around. And no one ever explains them? Because everybody's supposed to just know what they are. But do they act the same? Are they the same type of thing. So you can pour concrete deeper or more concrete Gypsum is usually just poured to an inch and a quarter at the max.
Jim Partridge:So there's modified gypsum underlayment, and then there's what we see day to day in a in a low rise, wood structure. That low rise wood structure utilizes what we call gypsum cement or gypsum underlayment, it's not made to go very thin, they mix it on site. So they're, they're actually pouring bags of gypsum this product, it's modified into a into a large mixing pump. And then they add sand, you know, with with a little little dozer, and then they add water, and then they pump it up there. And so there's a lot of things that can happen on site. I've seen so many types of buildings that are very well done and have great products. Unfortunately, they didn't call me to the good ones. They called me to the ones that weren't so good. And so what I usually saw was gypsum underlayment in low rise that was failing or that had issues or that was not level or didn't have a very good surface and so we were there to repair it, but in most cases, it can be done very effectively. And I hope I see some of those sometimes. Nobody wants me to see those.
Holiday Van Erem:You weren't meant to see those.
Jim Partridge:May be nice.
Holiday Van Erem:Are there any generic industry problems regarding subfloor prep that we haven't talked about that you think like, we need to also just throw this out here. This is something that happens all the time and just needs to be done differently.
Jim Partridge:It's becoming more mainstream. But so often we don't realize what can happen if the floor is not smooth. If the floor is not flat, and it's something that we're not going to see, if I'm a building owner, you know, I want to put my money in the best place. And that's going to be with the best products. But the best finish, you know, with the best visuals and all and all of those things, and what goes underneath it, it's not that important, we're not going to see it anyway. And so what we've seen as a trend is that floors that are not flat, that are not smooth, are showing imperfections in that finish floor and can cause an issue, you know, ceramic tile is getting larger and larger. You know, I think it used to be where we would see a 12x12 or 13x13. Tile and we go wow, look at that, I've actually seen 4x8 sheets of tile and, you know, go down. And so with a large, large tile like that, that floor has to be very, very flat. Otherwise it the edges we have lippage may have issues. And so and not only that, but it doesn't look good. And so we're realizing that the smooth flat floor is a standard that we must have to have a successful, nice looking floor. So I was on a high rise in Honolulu, Hawaii, these condos were selling for anywhere from$3 million to I think the penthouse was $80 million. And so the expectation was that when you walk in the trim looked perfect, he door swung open, and that gap on the door was perfect. And the trim was the same height all the way around the room and the floor was flat. And everything was as good as workmanship as it could be done. And so that floor needed to be flat, then when we get into the commercial world smooth is important. So if we've got, you know, bumps and undulations in a surgery room, or an operating room that can break through, and I used to know the daily charge on a surgery room, want to say it was $50,000 per day that the room generates for the hospital. And so you know, having to replace those things or repair a substrate prep is very important so that they don't have any issues down the road or something would break through or crack the vinyl or cause any other issues with the finished floor covering.
Holiday Van Erem:Smooth and flat. Damnit, it must be done.
Michael Goria:I'm just amazed. I mean, it just seems like it's so important. And like you said, it helps the job go so much easier. You have less issues, less callbacks, all these things. And yet, it's something that's just not talked about enough. I mean, I think to your point, it is getting talked about more and became more popular, and we can save ourselves so much time. If we just do it. Well, the first time.
Jim Partridge:I see so many more people that are much more educated on floor prep. When I first started, I wouldn't be talking with a group of installers who had never used self-leveling underlayment didn't really want to. And the last thing that any of us wants to do is go out to a project and do something that we've never done before, when we might have been a flooring professional for 20 years. And so once they had that information and realize that it it could make their job easier, it made the finished floor better it solved all these problems, we see more and more people do it. I actually have a good friend that had never used self-leveling underlayment, and he's a tile setter, we did a couple jobs together basement of a home and a couple. And now he must be honest, 10th truckload he looks for opportunities to use that, but he's also seen that his finished installation can be so much easier, so much faster, and so much better by utilizing those products. And they really have become a very important part of us at T&A, in order to have those products and make sure that we have them available for our customer.
Michael Goria:So if we have a customer listening, and they're going, Hey, I need to get my guys trained, how would they find out about some of these trainings, you talk about what was the best way for them to get connected with that.
Jim Partridge:At the branch, we try to do our best in advertising, when those trainings are coming. Generally, every year at any branch, you know, within our footprint, we have what we call a Customer Appreciation Day or vendor Fair, where we invite a lot of our key vendors through those events, and they can sign up or talk to their rep. You know, we encourage our customers to seek out their local rep, you know, manufacturing, we a lot of times we'll put them in touch. We want them to be trained and educated in any of these products so they can be successful. That was my favorite part of the job. And I can tell you one of the first experiences I had as a rep for the manufacturer that I worked for was we were doing a VA hospital in Tacoma, Washington, I had gone to just kind of present the product and I said, Well, why don't you just pick an area a room and it was it was a disaster. I mean, the place was, first of all, it was a dream for me because the concrete was a mess. And so I could go anywhere and fix something and so we decided on a particular room and we self-level the whole room and I worked with their group and really had a good time because they found it very easy to use. And when we left it looked like a very smooth Lake, you know, still still wet and i i came back the next morning and the gentleman that I had Been working with the most he looks at me and goes, Hey, come here. And he just falls to his knees on the floor that we had done the day before. And he says, You just got to feel this, it's so smooth. And I started laughing. And he looked at me, and he says, you already know that. I'm such an idiot. We really liked this product. And it was just, you know, it was time after time, after time that those things were just like, you know, people were excited to learn something new, they were really thankful that you would take the time to show them. And then, of course, to see the difference that they had, you know, whether it was a retirement home that I helped somebody with, I can think of, you know, the high rise projects that we did here in Seattle, or even actually had a gentleman called me. He had purchased a product at a at a home center, and he needed leveling, and the company would not do it. And he said, you know, he just wanted to know, you know, so I gave him several names of contractors. He called me back, you know, and I was the rep of the time he says, I can't get any of these guys to come and help me. And so on a Saturday, I took my two sons and we went and we self-leveled his living room. Anyway, it's just great, because the guy was so thankful. And he was so happy. And it was just like, I liked doing it. So it was it was no big deal for me. But just to solve the problems, you know, substrate prep solves problems. And whether it's moisture, whether it's just the floor being out of spec or not level, I can remember we did a Dick's Sporting Goods in Tacoma at the Tacoma mall, it looked like a warzone, the floor had been chipped up in many places, I couldn't imagine how they were ever going to have a retail establishment there. We've worked with them, we showed them what we could do. And at the right time, we we helped the contractor, pour the product, and it turned out perfectly laid the finish floorcovering. And it's just a job well done, we look back and we see that Dick's Sporting Goods was was happy, the contractor was happy, we were happy that we were able to service the customer. So I love it. You know if anybody ever wants to talk about substrate prep, I can't always get somebody to listen. Because I think there's probably other things that are more exciting to talk about. Not for me, but for you know, for you. You know, I mean, I know Holiday's excited to talk about marketing, and I'm sure you will bend my ear on hardwood and substrate prep has always been that that thing where I've been able to work with the customer on it. So I'm always happy to help with that. And it's been so fun. For me, it's always been like watching a home improvement show, I get to see the before, which was really ugly should tear it down. And I get to see the after, which is, you know, a finished project that turned out very well. And in most cases, that's the way they turned out very well. Only for that that list of disasters that you were talking about earlier, there are a few things but for the most part, always been able to help.
Holiday Van Erem:That's awesome. Always reach out to a branch. Because we always have people that can help look out for those events that we do. But if you are in dire need or just really want to have somebody train you reach out to us, and we'll find you somebody.
Jim Partridge:Absolutely yeah, we have vendors that are excited and happy to do that. We just need those willing participants.
Holiday Van Erem:I want to talk more specifically about products. We sell a lot of things here at T&A supply. And I would love to know more about which ones you would recommend. And I know that there's a lot of them. So if you have the like, what are the go to ones, I'm gonna make the jump, we need to do self-leveling. Where do they start? What are the main products that they would be the go-tos.
Jim Partridge:We do carry multiple manufacturers, but one of our manufacturers that's been key and that I worked for is routine, they've got a range of self-leveling underlayments, a range of patching compounds, we sell a product called 888. For patching the product has really become our go to for just about everything. We used to say that there was a primer already in it because it is polymer modified and sticks to just about anything. They say it'll still stick to glass. And that's what we advertised when I first started. So obviously, bonds very well self-leveling wise, we go through a lot of 150 self-leveling, I see pallets go out the door so often that the trucks just seem to show up with product and they leave as quickly as they come. So there's a lot of people using that product. It's got great open time, we talked about that earlier, meaning we can work with it for a long period of time, I used to tell guys that it makes an amateur look like an expert. And so because it's got some some qualities that allow for longer time and is truly self-leveling. It's been a very, very popular product for T&A supply. So and then, of course, a wide range of products that really meet more specific type of projects. We carry them all we carry the entire routine line. We also carry some products from ladder creek that do hit certain areas and specific projects, we will help you find the right product.
Holiday Van Erem:Lots of options.
Michael Goria:I think this is a great start to subfloor prep and leveling and kind of getting us to where we need to be and we can always do a follow up but this is super helpful. Jim, I appreciate you taking the time to educate us.
Jim Partridge:Yeah and certainly there are people that are more educated on these types of products that I. So we can always point you in the right direction. Sure if it gets out of out of our range, but happy to be here. Thank you. And and hopefully that this will inspire somebody maybe to do something that they've not done before, self-level.
Holiday Van Erem:Yes.
Jim Partridge:And patch.
Holiday Van Erem:Yeah.
Michael Goria:The challenge is out there.
Holiday Van Erem:I'm feeling like maybe this weekend. I have a sober project. Since we have Jim here, Michael. Yep. I think we just, on the spot, do a fire in the hole.
Michael Goria:That's perfect. Go for it. Yes,
Holiday Van Erem:I like it.
Michael Goria:So Jim, you said you had a category you wanted to promote today? What do you want to talk about?
Jim Partridge:Yes, I want to make sure that, that our listeners know that we carry a wide, wide wide variety of ceramic insulation products. I think so many of our customers have known us for the things that we've always carried tack strip and padding and base, rubber base, and heat tape staples and all of those things that they come into their local branch and buy every day, but many do not know you know that we carry a wide variety of installation products for the ceramic industry, whether it be thin sets, multiple types of thinset, for many types of installation tools for the trade. So many tools tools for large format tile, tools that will help disperse the thin set, you know, for the large panels that we're seeing put in we're seeing panels that go up that are as large as like we talked about earlier 4x8. So you know we're a single shower wall is just one piece of tile. So in order to disperse that tile, or even to pick up that we'll use suction cups to hold that will use suction cups that will vibrate to disperse the ceramic tile adhesives or the or the thin sets. And so those are all carried at T&A Supply and and I've run into some customers that weren't aware of that we carry a full line of ceramic trim a full line of grouse in every color that Laticrete offers in multiple types of products. So we carry bucket grouts, we carry epoxy, we carry Portland cement grounds, anything that is needed for the installation of ceramic tile, you'll find it at T&A Supply shower systems, multiple brands of shower systems from Wedi to Laticrete Go Board is stocked in a lot of our locations. We also carry multiple types of drains that for that category, everything that is needed for that installation in floor heat. So if we want to warm our toes, once you've had that you'll never go back. Just a quick warning, but we carry that and we've got the the knowledge behind that if you walk into one of our branches, and you ask about these things, they'll know what you'll need the products that you'll need to have a successful installation so many times. Again, we're known for tack strip, P tape, the basics of carpet and vinyl installation or VCT installation, or LVT installation. But so many of our customers don't know that we carry a wide variety of ceramic installation products.
Michael Goria:Now that's awesome. I mean, I was so amazed at the amount of sundry items we carried when I first came here. I mean, it just blew me away. And then to find out how big of a piece of our business that it is, it's a very important part of our business, we want to make sure we hit that community as much as possible.
Holiday Van Erem:And we don't sell any ceramic tile finished ceramic tile anymore, we used to quite a while ago. So it's kind of the one of those things you forget about, we have everything that you could possibly need to install it, we have it in our branches, and you can walk in and pick it up that day.
Jim Partridge:In most cases, you can do it very quickly. So sometimes there are challenges with going to some of our competitors where it takes, you know, maybe an hour or so to get those products, we'll have you in and out in a jiffy. And, we just want to make sure that you've got everything you need for that project. So we're really working hard to let people know what we have as far as our merchandising and marketing within the branch. So often, we're so used to knowing what we have that we forget that maybe some of our new customers don't know when they walk in that door, what we have available to them. And so this is a great opportunity to let them know that we carry so many products in that category.
Holiday Van Erem:Well, thanks for participating in our, on the spot, fire in the hole. Wrapping this up, thank you so much, Jim, for coming in and chatting with us.
Jim Partridge:I dont know we'll see. I'm sure I'll be critical.
Michael Goria:But you'll be amazed by the power of editing. Trust me, my first mini I was like, I suck at this.
Jim Partridge:I think it goes great. So good editing, there you go.
Michael Goria:Good editing.
Jim Partridge:I wish I could do that with some of my presentations.
Michael Goria:Right?
Holiday Van Erem:Yeah.
Jim Partridge:I can't remember. I mean, I forgot where I was one time it just you ever get ever and you just like everything goes away, right?
Michael Goria:Yeah.
Jim Partridge:Everything went away. I can remember looking at about 25 people going What am I? Who am I? Was I transported here somehow? Who are these people? That hasn't happened for a while.
Holiday Van Erem:That's good. You're getting more sleep these days.
Michael Goria:Well done.
Holiday Van Erem:What the Floor is a T&A Supply Company Inc. original production. You can find out more about us at tasupply.com or tasflooring.com
Michael Goria:This show was produced by Jose Morales with help from Tony Collier and Paul Van Erem. Hosted by Holiday van Erem and Michael Goria.
Holiday Van Erem:Tell us what you think of the show by emailing us at wtfpodcast@tasupply.com or find us on social media#whatthefloorpodcast